VVT dyno tuning

[DYI01]

Tomorrow morning I have an appointment for 2 hours of dyno tuning. I intend to tune my VVT as best as possible. My main concern is that we dont really have an idea of how much the PFC can change timing on the VVT and if the values imputed into the PFC are actual degrees or just arbitrary numbers. For tuning sake I am going to try and find out how big of a difference changing VVT can make. I am going to set the lift point higher to say 7000 rpm and change all the WOT values (p9-p14) in the VVT to 10 and run on the dyno then keep upping the VVT in increments of 10 to tune the low cam. Then do the same for the high cam, set the lift point lower to say 5000 rpm and run all the VVT points until I see no change in power. When the engine doesnt show any changes in power up or down it has probably reached the limit of the VVT adjustment. By keep changing VVT points in 10's you can put together a composite VVT map by over-laying all the dyno plots and choosing the angle that makes the most power. This will take somewhere in the area of about 10-12 runs IMO. Setting the cam points high and low and overlaying the dyno plots after putting together a composite VVT map will show the best lift point where the two HP curves intersect. After making a composite map with the Lift point set take the entire map and advance the VVT by 5 and run it on the dyno then set the VVT and retard it by 5 and run it on the dyno. You will see if the changes made a difference. Thats basically what I think will yield the best numbers. I will post back tomorrow afternoon after my tuning session. Please leave any feedback on my tuning process.

[gtspaul2zzge]

good luck man, can't wait to see the results.

[Jdm_cel]

looking forward to the gain in hp hopefully...=0)

on a side note.. I went to dyno my car this morning ...and it was a single roller dynojet... and the guy couldn't get the car to stay stable to run the dyno...
so a disablement morning with no dyno....

do you really need a double roller to dyno a front wheel drive???

[cool2miketlu]

No you don't need double roller, there should be anchors on the ground for them to anchor your car down, maybe they did not strap your car down tight enough... I believe it needs 3~4 straps.
I recall a video of a Skyline on 4WD dyno, they did not strap it down and it jumped off the roller and fall off the dyno (it was raised dyno where people can look under the car).

[DYI01]

OK interesting news from the dyno. I am very impressed with the gains tuning VVT gave me over the MWR basemap dynos. Lift point CAN be lowered to make power which I proved today on the dyno. I tuned the VVT just like I posted in the first post and it worked like a charm. The farthest you can advance the timing on VVT and see a difference is in the 50 area. any higher and you see no changes on the dyno up or down. Now on to the results

Dyno #1 is a MWR basemap that has been street tuned fuel and ignition.


This plot is tuning the low cam, and setting lift point at 7000 rpm. Runs 6 and 9 are two different cam angles that made the best power in parts of the power band. Run 10 is a composite map of those two runs.


This plot is tuning the high cam and setting lift point to 5000 rpm. Runs 14 and 19 are cam angles that made the best power in their respective parts of the power band. Run 20 is the composite map.


This plot is runs 10 and 20 overlayed to see where the optimal Lift transition is located. As you can see it is right at 5500 rpm.


This last plot is a before and after. I didnt get to get a last run of the 5500 RPM lift engagement (time and $) but overlaying the plots shows a HUGE improvement everywhere. Driving I feel a nice improvement and lift transition is very smooth. Largest gains: +34 WHP, +28 WTQ gain @ 6000 rpm. +15 WHP, +10 WTQ gain @ 7600 rpm.

[gerteix]

Ch33z, DYI have a GT-S.

Awesome numbers,i wish fedex have not robbed me my PFC

[Ch33z]

so does this apply to the GTS with the VVTL-I also? and how did u lower ur lift engagement? PFC or Camcon? those numbers looks impressive

[DYI01]

Originally Posted by Ch33z

so does this apply to the GTS with the VVTL-I also? and how did u lower ur lift engagement? PFC or Camcon? those numbers looks impressive

Originally Posted by gerteix

Ch33z, DYI have a GT-S.

Awesome numbers,i wish fedex have not robbed me my PFC

Yup I have a GT-S, I tuned it with the PFC and FC-Datalogit.

My other engine mods are gen2 AEM CAI, ported stock header, test-pipe, and modified TRD Kazuma.

[Jdm_cel]

I was kinda upset today when I got back from the dyno...
I only made 156 whp & 113 wtq...
this was basicly on a street tune map...

I guess it's time to dyno tune it =0)...

greatly job like always DYI01

[youngxlos]

holly **** good numbers, no drop on the hp curve at all. but i have the same ammount of hp and my only mods are butterfly valve removed from intake box, ported stock header, Fidanza flywheel, RPS sports clutch. wat shop did you dyno at???? if your the one that did all the tuning would it be ok if you tune my car ones i get the power fc????
if you like ill scan my dyno to compare number.
i finally got the TPR exhaust and intake, i should get a dyno by the first week of october.will see how it does.

[GT_RyderZ]

i don't get it. for those amount of mods, you only got 171 whp? and you have gts.

[youngxlos]

^^^^ yeah see you should be like hitting 190 or breaking the 200

[Illusive]

awesome! those are fantastic tuning results.

since you have no catalytic converter I wonder if that is what allowed you to set lift engagement about 500 rpms lower than we were able to.

maybe the backpressure from the cat hinders flow at lower rpms to the point of loosing power in lift?

[GT_RyderZ]

Originally Posted by youngxlos

^^^^ yeah see you should be like hitting 190 or breaking the 200

are you making fun of me? i'm talking to DYI01.

[DYI01]

Originally Posted by Jdm_cel

I was kinda upset today when I got back from the dyno...
I only made 156 whp & 113 wtq...
this was basicly on a street tune map...

I guess it's time to dyno tune it =0)...

greatly job like always DYI01

Yea I have come to the conclusion that the MWR basemap is nothing more than what it is, a basemap. In reality my cam angle maps are almost nothing like the MWR map. Go hit the dyno with some good tuning time and see how it does.

Originally Posted by youngxlos

holly **** good numbers, no drop on the hp curve at all. but i have the same ammount of hp and my only mods are butterfly valve removed from intake box, ported stock header, Fidanza flywheel, RPS sports clutch. wat shop did you dyno at???? if your the one that did all the tuning would it be ok if you tune my car ones i get the power fc????
if you like ill scan my dyno to compare number.
i finally got the TPR exhaust and intake, i should get a dyno by the first week of october.will see how it does.

It is hard to compare dynos from different facilites. You need compare dynos from the same dyno done at the same if not close to the same atmospheric conditions to compare numbers. The dyno you did pulls on could read high or the dyno I ran on could read low, or I just have a weak motor. Numbers are relative, the difference that I made from when I came and when I left are what counts. Plus it was ~95 degrees F outside, humidity was really high (we just had a small rainstorm this afternoon), and my IAT's were about 45 degrees C (about 113 degrees F). I dont mind doing tuning, but I would have to charge you, not sure about a price though.

Originally Posted by GT_RyderZ

i don't get it. for those amount of mods, you only got 171 whp? and you have gts.

Originally Posted by youngxlos

^^^^ yeah see you should be like hitting 190 or breaking the 200

See above.

Originally Posted by Illusive

awesome! those are fantastic tuning results.

since you have no catalytic converter I wonder if that is what allowed you to set lift engagement about 500 rpms lower than we were able to.

maybe the backpressure from the cat hinders flow at lower rpms to the point of loosing power in lift?

Yea that could be a contributing factor for my car making power lowering the lift engagement. I would like to try tuning another car with a cat to see if it makes a difference.

[celicadragon]

this all seems promising but we definately need to see it happen on a gt-s with a cat

[thecelicaking]

Originally Posted by celicadragon

this all seems promising but we definately need to see it happen on a gt-s with a cat

[DYI01]

Originally Posted by celicadragon

this all seems promising but we definately need to see it happen on a gt-s with a cat

In all honesty the way it makes power and the amount of power it is making I dont think the cat really has much to do with it. Take the MWR basemap and lower lift point to 5500 and you will lose power with the VVT setting MWR uses, the cam angle just isnt optimal for the rpm. Set the cam angles to where I have mine set to and set lift 5500 rpm and you will have a smooth linear powerband. Its a lot more than just lowering the lift point you have to change the VVT angle accordingly.You can almost not even feel lift engagement its just pulls smooth and fast as hell.

My tuned cam angle at 5500 vs. MWR cam angle at 5500.

[slidr]

One of the reasons I think twice about getting a PFC is because I will have no idea how the hell to tune it.

[HardcoreAuto]

a catalytic converter, will rob you of all the available power. Just like on the rsx type-s, with a long tube race header, we've seen gains of 10-25whp, just from tuning and the header

Mikey

[DYI01]

Originally Posted by HardcoreAuto

a catalytic converter, will rob you of all the available power. Just like on the rsx type-s, with a long tube race header, we've seen gains of 10-25whp, just from tuning and the header

Mikey

Im a ClubRSX lurker and I have read up a lot on how people have been tuning K-Pro. I used the same principles with tuning my car. Your posts have been very informative. Hopefully I will have my long tube race header done soon and can do some tuning with that.

[HardcoreAuto]

thank you sir, i appreciate it. That is why I opened up a shop

Btw, im making a long tube race header for production, if the gains are veasable. Thats if i can find a local gt-s with apexi power fc

Mikey

[DYI01]

Originally Posted by HardcoreAuto

thank you sir, i appreciate it. That is why I opened up a shop

Btw, im making a long tube race header for production, if the gains are veasable. Thats if i can find a local gt-s with apexi power fc

Mikey

No problem. I think you would have good success with tuning Celica's with the PFC using the same tuning principles as k-pro. If any PFC'd Celica's need tuning they should get in contact with this man because I know he can get the hidden power out of your car. Keep us updated on the race header you are producing.

[many]

Nice tunning.
On run number 10 at 5000rpm there's no dip of power wich is really good,but when I look at your final dyno run 39 there it is again.
Did you forget to change that part on the vvtl-i?

[DYI01]

Originally Posted by many

Nice tunning.
On run number 10 at 5000rpm there's no dip of power wich is really good,but when I look at your final dyno run 39 there it is again.
Did you forget to change that part on the vvtl-i?

Run 10 is a tuned low cam run. 39 is a final VVT tuned map with the lift point set to 5000 rpm, not 5500. I didnt have any time left to do another pull. But setting the lift transition to 5500 makes the car pull VERY nicley. I am going to try and get a few pulls again in the next few weeks to see the lift @ 5500.

[youngxlos]

yeah ill pay you bro, i aint trying to get my **** tuned for free.
ur the only one around the area that can do it, most shops here are good with K-pro not the power fc.
yo if your race header makes good gains ill pay you to make me one as well, is this the same race header Slava was talking to me about??? well hopefully HardcoreAuto can come out with one as well. im tired of waiting for the other companys to make some. oh any possible way you can get some vids up???? i would love to hear your baby scream at 5k rpm

[Redliner9k]

Wow, 5500rpm Lift point, huh. Awesome, seems YOU CAN go lower than 6000rpm..... hmmmmm *ponders*

Did you only tune VVT or did you also do some A/F tuning?

[DYI01]

Originally Posted by youngxlos

yeah ill pay you bro, i aint trying to get my **** tuned for free.
ur the only one around the area that can do it, most shops here are good with K-pro not the power fc.
yo if your race header makes good gains ill pay you to make me one as well, is this the same race header Slava was talking to me about??? well hopefully HardcoreAuto can come out with one as well. im tired of waiting for the other companys to make some. oh any possible way you can get some vids up???? i would love to hear your baby scream at 5k rpm

Well when you get the PFC and you are ready to tune it let me know. I think tuning again would take the half the time now as I really know what I am doing now. Today I did a lot of experimenting on the dyno, since no one else really did any legwork as to what can be done with VVT tuning, and have shared their experiences. I will try and get some video up soon for people.

Originally Posted by Redliner9k

Wow, 5500rpm Lift point, huh. Awesome, seems YOU CAN go lower than 6000rpm..... hmmmmm *ponders*

Did you only tune VVT or did you also do some A/F tuning?

Most people wo have experimented with lowering Lift probably didnt go through all the trouble that I went through to tune VVT. I tuned the A/F on the street with my AEM wideband, I made some small fueling changes in lift point, but other than that it is unchanged from my other map.

[StEaLtHbLkZeRo]

what's a good a/f ratio? so far i've heard 13.5 is pretty good for the GTS

[EasyC]

Originally Posted by StEaLtHbLkZeRo

what's a good a/f ratio? so far i've heard 13.5 is pretty good for the GTS

I run 12.5 for heavy load in lift. 13.5 on the low cam for heavy load. seems to pull pretty nicely.

[Illusive]

Originally Posted by EasyC

I run 12.5 for heavy load in lift. 13.5 on the low cam for heavy load. seems to pull pretty nicely.

thats pretty rich.

you can squeeze out up to 13.5 if you can stabilize your a/f's under load on the high cam.

and go up to 14.0's on the low cam.

[EasyC]

Originally Posted by Illusive

thats pretty rich.

you can squeeze out up to 13.5 if you can stabilize your a/f's under load on the high cam.

and go up to 14.0's on the low cam.

Seems to be more powerful running that rich. What were CI's dyno results for optimum A/F?

[Illusive]

Originally Posted by EasyC

Seems to be more powerful running that rich. What were CI's dyno results for optimum A/F?

leaner is meaner.

the gt-s loves it lean in boost and n/a

14.0 is as far as we went on both cam lobes for safety. that made the most power, and it was for racing only. our street map had a modest 13.0 flat a/f

[celicadragon]

i wonder if any of this will be possible with the new greddy ultimate e-manage? thats what i will have so im hoping i might be able to make some power by nice tuning.

[DYI01]

Originally Posted by celicadragon

i wonder if any of this will be possible with the new greddy ultimate e-manage? thats what i will have so im hoping i might be able to make some power by nice tuning.

Affraid not. The E-manage cannot control Lift engagement nor VVT timing. If you have a 02 GT-S why not get the PFC?

[EasyC]

Originally Posted by DYI01

Affraid not. The E-manage cannot control Lift engagement nor VVT timing. If you have a 02 GT-S why not get the PFC?

He's got an Auto.

[Illusive]

also another good thing is to make sure you thoroughly clean your maf before any kind of dyno time. dont want to get faulty maf readings in lower load cells because of a dirty maf.

[EasyC]

Originally Posted by Illusive

leaner is meaner.

the gt-s loves it lean in boost and n/a

14.0 is as far as we went on both cam lobes for safety. that made the most power, and it was for racing only. our street map had a modest 13.0 flat a/f

So run 14.0 at high load on the low cam, and 13.5 on the high cam???

I have my car set up for 14.7 on cruising loads....it doesn't seem that bad....anything richer sux down gas so bad I get 25 mpg and below.

[Illusive]

Originally Posted by EasyC

So run 14.0 at high load on the low cam, and 13.5 on the high cam???

I have my car set up for 14.7 on cruising loads....it doesn't seem that bad....anything richer sux down gas so bad I get 25 mpg and below.

no.

for a RACE map only.
we were able to run 14.0 flat across the rpm range.

thats high load wot tuning.

for part throttle tuning its very common to see 15.0 on the low cam,(especially on the stock ecu) this would give the best gas milage.

it's also good to tune on the highway for part throttle so you can dial in your a/fs just right and optimum for milage instead of performance.

[EasyC]

Originally Posted by Illusive

no.

for a RACE map only.
we were able to run 14.0 flat across the rpm range.

thats high load wot tuning.

for part throttle tuning its very common to see 15.0 on the low cam,(especially on the stock ecu) this would give the best gas milage.

it's also good to tune on the highway for part throttle so you can dial in your a/fs just right and optimum for milage instead of performance.

Yea thats what i meant, set it up to run 14.7-15.0 on low and cruising loads, then 14.0 and 13.5 respectively on high loads....

[DYI01]

My target for tuning was 14.7 cruising. 13.5 on the low cam and 13.2 in Lift @ WOT.

[EasyC]

Originally Posted by DYI01

My target for tuning was 14.7 cruising. 13.5 on the low cam and 13.2 in Lift @ WOT.

Did that yield the best power for you. I apologize for hijacking your thread.

[DYI01]

Originally Posted by EasyC

Did that yield the best power for you. I apologize for hijacking your thread.

Not a problem, I like tuning talk Actually I would rather run safe as opposed to running leaner with a possibility of running too lean. At lift engagement I gained more power with it being richer. When I set the lift engagement lower it had a lean spike, along with a dip in power. After adding fuel to the spike, the power dip went away and I got back power.

[EasyC]

Originally Posted by DYI01

Not a problem, I like tuning talk Actually I would rather run safe as opposed to running leaner with a possibility of running too lean. At lift engagement I gained more power with it being richer. When I set the lift engagement lower it had a lean spike, along with a dip in power. After adding fuel to the spike, the power dip went away and I got back power.

I guess dyno tuning would be the only way to tell what the best A/F is.....

[many]

We also found the best gains at 13.7 to 14.

[StEaLtHbLkZeRo]

i have the camcon unit, but have not installed it yet. so when i tune the a/f ratio, do i tune it with the engine on reading from the wideband? or get the wideband readings first, then turn off the engine and change the settings?
I'm going to be street tuning it

[Jdm_cel]

is 13.7 to 13.9 in straight A/F too lean???
I still under 40 Knocks....through out the power band...

[AdamVIP]

This is an exciting thread. Not just cause lift is fun but look how smooth the curve is. Its kind of cool that lift kicks in hard and fast with stock setups but I always felt jipped on the lower RPMs. The cost of the PFC is looking better and better each day. Not to mention this shows still more potential in our motors. Good job

[DYI01]

Originally Posted by StEaLtHbLkZeRo

i have the camcon unit, but have not installed it yet. so when i tune the a/f ratio, do i tune it with the engine on reading from the wideband? or get the wideband readings first, then turn off the engine and change the settings?
I'm going to be street tuning it

What wideband do you have? Depending on what unit you have datalogging will make tuning that much easier.

Originally Posted by Jdm_cel

is 13.7 to 13.9 in straight A/F too lean???
I still under 40 Knocks....through out the power band...

IMO that is too lean for a daily driven map. I would richen it up some, but it is still your call.

Originally Posted by AdamVIP

This is an exciting thread. Not just cause lift is fun but look how smooth the curve is. Its kind of cool that lift kicks in hard and fast with stock setups but I always felt jipped on the lower RPMs. The cost of the PFC is looking better and better each day. Not to mention this shows still more potential in our motors. Good job

Yes the lower tuned lift engagement will bring out a VERY smooth power band. There is no drama like with the 6000 rpm engagement. You can hear lift but its just a smooth pull, all the way to 8600 rpm. The PFC is one of the best mods I have done. I have learned so much from learning about tuning and tuning my car to make good power. There is a lot of hidden potential in the 2zz, you just need to know how to coax it out. My friend Prinya (Kaioshin) tested out my map and he loves the lower lift engagement and the smoothed out powerband. He has the trial header and stock midpipe/cat.

[RaptorGTS]

i might have to get PFC soon then, cus this is very exciting news. With a couple more mods, this tune can become a pretty insane setup for an NA 2ZZ. I might have to hire you to help tune this thing if I buy PFC.