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Old 05-11-2012, 07:35 PM   #1
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3S-GTE in a 7th Gen GT-S

So can it be done?
Who makes a mount kit?
How much will it run?







JUST KIDDING!!!!! Not another one of those!
This is a project I have been thinking about for a few years, ya know take the bitch out of my 7th gen GTS...
I got a 3SGTE/Wiring harness/ECU/etc... about 6+ months ago and have been waiting for time.
I got some time this week and we got it hung so far! Axles are super straight! Making front and rear mounts next week and I am going to need a SMIM (Sheet Metal Intake manifold).
There is some space issues with the cowl and the long intake manifold that came with my 4th gen 3SGTE.
I could hack up the cowl and make it fit then fab somthing for the windshield wipers OR I could leave the cowl alone and make a SMIM to fit and the SMIM will make more power... No brainer there! SMIM it is!
This is not one of those 'Can I do It threads'
I am doing it and just going to fill ya'all in...
There will be more to come next week!
Not a great pic but that is a Caldina 3SGTE (Coil Pack Motor) sitting back with that S Engine Family Gangsta Lean.
My goal is to keep everything functioning like stock, AC, Gauges ETC...


BTW, the 3S motor fits pretty great so far... maybe there is something I have not run into yet that is the reason everyone acts like it is impossible. I cant believe no one makes a kit...
After i get this running in FWD mode I am buy the rear subframe assembly from a GT4 and going to explore the possibilitys!

Last edited by DSMer; 05-11-2012 at 07:41 PM..
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Old 05-11-2012, 07:40 PM   #2
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Old 05-11-2012, 07:46 PM   #3
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what about a BEAMS style intake?

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Old 05-11-2012, 07:46 PM   #4
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Also, it looks like you could angle the engine up a little straighter to get more room back there maybe.
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Old 05-11-2012, 07:54 PM   #5
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wow doesnt this make 3sgte Swap #2 or is he #3?
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Old 05-11-2012, 08:17 PM   #6
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#4 i know of

#1 fensport
#2 was done by guy from cali cant remember who it was silver and he tried selling it on here or i saw it on craigslist
#3 was done by some shop back east
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Old 05-11-2012, 08:26 PM   #7
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I am not sure why more people have not done it!
I know there are a few out there...
fensport
I thought TRD did one
The guy in S FL but the shop closed up and there is somthing about him and some turbo kits on the Tc forums IIRC, bottom line I dont think he is going to surface.
I have seen another, I think a west coast car. It was black and clean looking.
Anyways, not enough of them out there so hopefully sooner than later one more. Ill snap some pics of my caldina manifold and the clearence I have. Not much under the cowl but this is the best placement for the motor so I will work around it.
Too bad, out of all the factory 3SGTE manifold I liked this one the best, fatter runners and only 4!
I guess i can sell it to a 3rd gen 3S guy
I found some pics of the Caldina Manifold thanks to google.com


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Old 05-11-2012, 08:31 PM   #8
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what r the gains even? It just seems like the wieght of this will just throw the car wiegh off balance.
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Old 05-11-2012, 08:57 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrfunny107 View Post
what r the gains even? It just seems like the wieght of this will just throw the car wiegh off balance.
I remember reading this off a 3S-GTE swap thread:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Smaay View Post
again the 3S-GTE is NOT NOT NOT faster than a 2ZZ. it weighs about 4 times as much and only makes 20 more HP, you are actually going to loose speed because of the heavier engine going by HP to weight ratio. and then there is all the blah blah blah custom fab work to install it.

So in the end, I don't think the swap is worth it.

2zz > 3S-GTE
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Old 05-11-2012, 09:21 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimaoala View Post
I remember reading this off a 3S-GTE swap thread:





So in the end, I don't think the swap is worth it.

2zz > 3S-GTE
Hate to say it, but yeah. People think that because it's a turbo and makes more power, it's gonna be faster. They forget weight...

BUT, to the OP, I give you mad props for taking on the swap! Takes balls to dive into something like this, keep us updated!
Lol@gangsta lean. Imma remember that one
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Old 05-11-2012, 09:45 PM   #11
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lol, i like drag racing, that takes power...
Sure there are a few high power 2ZZ's out there. Just not my cup of tea... I have been all through several 2ZZ motors. I am a Expert leval Toyota Technician.
Its a good motor, but not my style (my style would be cast iron, strong, and ready for lots of airflow lol)
Call me old school, heh.
Better or not, it how I am going to be rolling and I think its fukkin groovy!
I will dyno the car after and weigh it and post up the data so everyone can stop thinking they know something and have some facts to go off.
JJSpec has a in house Mustang Dyno
Here we are playing around on it with a AR motor/auto and some spray out of the fill station (2.5 2AR '10MY and up);
http://youtu.be/ncSGnJxQwBM
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Old 05-11-2012, 09:59 PM   #12
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Just to show I am not a noob to the 2ZZ, I will be posting a very clean LOW milage 2ZZ 04+ (air injection)This is a factory low milage motor with vin numbers (06 XRS) to verify milage and a almost new (2011) factory fresh C64 for sale soon.
I not a newb to 2ZZ's, just always wanted to do this and for years not many have so about 6 months ago I finally got the balls to buy the motor. Now the project is rolling.
Not trying to advertise this stuff for sale here, I am just trying to show I know a little bit about the ZZT231 Platform...
Please dont PM me about the motor or trans until you see a FS add for it. I am saving it for when I run out of money on this project...
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Old 05-15-2012, 10:28 AM   #13
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^ Looks good so far.
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Old 05-15-2012, 10:51 AM   #14
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neat swap. your one of the few that have said it done and hopefully make it work. good luck with everything.

the only gain that most of the other swaps got from the swap was that they went all out and did the AWD conversion also. now thats something i would consider a benefit from the swap. only the dude that wanted to sell the silver celica here stayed FWD and there was also a yellow celica with the swap that only claimed to be AWD. good luck and keep us posted
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Old 05-15-2012, 11:05 AM   #15
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I got trolled by your intro lol

Who cares if it weighs more....its an iron block. They've been proven to make power. All of the best engines are iron. JZ's, RB's, 4G63's....

Get the awd drivetrain and leave the front axles out= rwd LOL

In for results!
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Old 05-15-2012, 12:44 PM   #16
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Quote:
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I got trolled by your intro lol

Who cares if it weighs more....its an iron block. They've been proven to make power. All of the best engines are iron. JZ's, RB's, 4G63's....
AMEN! My 4G63 in my sig is a STOCK block! Stock Crank, just pistons and rods!

I belive the motor and trans is about 200 lbs heavier than the 2ZZ + C60 but then i will have added wieght of the FMIC, and heavier exhaust. I know my new sheet metal intake manifold will be lighter than the factory one!

Got a Update for you guys! Uploading pics now!
BTW, This is a ST215 3SGT (Coil Pack Motor), just to make it a little harder on myself
BTW a 3SGTE is 86mmX86mm... Do you know what other Toyota Motor is 86x86?
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Old 05-15-2012, 01:35 PM   #17
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It is in and it fits really well! Like it was suppose to be there...
We were able to use all the 7th gen body portion of the mounts. new engine/trans mounts were fabricated. I like the fact that all the factory vibration isolators (NVH) are still in use.



After discussing, I am going to use the 3SGTE AC Compressor and have new lines made. It seems easier than using the 2ZZ AC Compressor. I am also going to use the 3SGTE PS pump, should be simple.
Still unsure of shift cables, will update that later.
I have the axles all sorted, they are being made.
The fabricator sketched me the intake manifold he has in mind and it looks sweet! Short and fat! He said a week plus on it though
Fabbing a 3" exhaust, I have a trick up my sleeve for that and am hopping it ends up REALLY quiet.
Fabbing IC piping for the FMIC.
I am sure there is alot more I am forgeting right now, oh yha, like the fuel system problem (returnless in the 7th gen)



This rear mount was the most detailed for fabrication


I will have many more updates
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Old 05-15-2012, 02:00 PM   #18
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Old 05-15-2012, 02:02 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by DSMer View Post
AMEN! My 4G63 in my sig is a STOCK block! Stock Crank, just pistons and rods!
The 839whp 2ZZ in MWR's drag car is also STOCK open deck alloy block, STOCK crank, just pistons and rods.


Nice swap none the less.
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Old 05-15-2012, 05:35 PM   #20
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Nice work buddy looks like someone could easily make a kit for the swap
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Old 05-15-2012, 05:42 PM   #21
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You know what would be funny... If this was all just a really really elaborate game of photoshop. But still this is pretty cool. U should have just gone all out and do AWD too.
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Old 05-15-2012, 06:04 PM   #22
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Quote:
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The 839whp 2ZZ in MWR's drag car is also STOCK open deck alloy block, STOCK crank, just pistons and rods.


Nice swap none the less.
Damn...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrfunny107 View Post
You know what would be funny... If this was all just a really really elaborate game of photoshop. But still this is pretty cool. U should have just gone all out and do AWD too.
Looks pretty real to me...? But THIS, I would wanna see a AWD too. Good luck on the build.
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Old 05-15-2012, 07:06 PM   #23
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Nice..
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Old 05-15-2012, 07:36 PM   #24
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Quote:
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The 839whp 2ZZ in MWR's drag car is also STOCK open deck alloy block, STOCK crank, just pistons and rods.

Nice swap none the less.
Wow those MMC sleeves take that? Is it full fill? Not for long I assume! Nevertheless, very nice and I did not know they went that far. I know you should sleeve the 2ZZ block if you want to make any power at all with them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbedward View Post
Nice work buddy looks like someone could easily make a kit for the swap
That may happen. The mounts are pretty easy, its all the other stuff that adds up to a butt load of work.
I will have a well documented list when I am done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrfunny107 View Post
You know what would be funny... If this was all just a really really elaborate game of photoshop. But still this is pretty cool. U should have just gone all out and do AWD too.
LOL, I can post pics of the motor on a pallet, pics with just the trans in, etc.. not photoshop pal, the real deal.

AWD is in the plans, just one thing at a time.
After this swap is completed and running I am going to buy all the rear guts from a GT4 and see what I can do to hang it. After that ill need a custom driveshaft (no problem) and figure out rear spindles.
I am sure someone from the 6thgen down celicas would love to trade me the AWD trans they got with there swap for my FWD one they can use.
But that is down the road...

Thanks for the support guys! I hope we never have to speculate on this swap again (at least I wont, lol). The few people that have done it seem to go missing right after.
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Old 05-15-2012, 09:01 PM   #25
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Old 05-15-2012, 09:31 PM   #26
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the 2ZZ gets sleeved when people want pistons but don't want a new block. the MMC cylinders go out of spec for aftermarket pistons just like any steel cylinder would, but you can't hone MMC back to spec so its either sleeve or new block. Most people sleeve, so that's why you see sleeved 2ZZ's running boost.

Think about it, the NSX V6 uses MMC cylinders. Granted it's not super high output, but it's another great engine. Who else uses MMC cylinders and has crazy high output? Oh, Forumla 1 engines! Well until they banned their use because the material is TOO good. No MMC parts on any F1 engines at all anymore. They're super light, super strong, and super conductive of heat if you design them to be. Amazing material.
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Old 05-15-2012, 11:23 PM   #27
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Wow those MMC sleeves take that? Is it full fill? Not for long I assume! Nevertheless, very nice and I did not know they went that far. I know you should sleeve the 2ZZ block if you want to make any power at all with them.
They are running Mahle pistons in there so I do believe this is an unsleeved block. I have to make a small correction though: It's not 839whp, it's 823whp. They have not yet found the limit of the block. That 823 whp was where they ran out of capacity with the stock coil packs. They also ran out of injector.
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Old 05-16-2012, 06:53 AM   #28
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Looking good! Can't wait to see the end results
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Old 05-16-2012, 08:16 AM   #29
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GSBoek, WOW! that is impressive!

I JUST GOT ST215 Wiring diagram! In ENGRISH! This basically is non-existant!
I have been searching for DAYS with NOOOOOOOO Luck... Lots of dead ends! However I am a memeber of lots of new Toyota forums all over the world, lol. Malasia has a strong Caldina following.
So they guy was telling me there is no speed sensor in the trans, the Caldina uses the abs sensor data. I have not looked into this yet though. I think my trans has a speed sensor, I will update as I make progress.
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Old 05-16-2012, 09:54 AM   #30
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Interesting, can't wait for results with dyno and weight difference.
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Old 05-16-2012, 10:49 AM   #31
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Old 05-16-2012, 11:53 AM   #32
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eh... from my experince with boosted applications it seems like a boost leak hot spot!
Kinda OT but;
A friend had a Nissan Pulser GTI-R and it was boosted SR20 with ITB's and AWD from the factory IIRC.

cool car.
He is super scetchy, told me to blur evan his face in pics. He has garage full of sweetness Japanese cars he has imported over the years. I dont think any of them are very legit as far as DOT regulations.
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Old 05-16-2012, 11:54 AM   #33
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Just trowing this out there, but after you finish fabing the mounts you should make a few extra or atleast detailed pics and measurements. Im sure people would buy them

Great build so far
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Old 05-16-2012, 10:42 PM   #34
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All i know is that there are monster 3sgte motors and is a well known motor with so much potential. The 2ZZ although a strong motor has not made it up the Engine God's list, i hate to say. 2 Motors that are well known when built right are the 3sgte on the 4cyl side and 2JZ on the 6 cyl side. 3sgte are very well known. I remember the 7 sec paseo running the 3sgte, Rod Millen's hill climb monster ~1200HP, HKS Celica FWD 3sgte, Rally winnings, Fensports a good example. There was a 3sgte 700HP Silvia. Im sure i like the lift of the 2zz but 3sgte is king for 4 cyl toyotas since the late 80s. 3sgtes make 2jz's on some to many occasions look like chumps. but thats just my opinion with a little bit of history/fact.
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Old 05-16-2012, 11:04 PM   #35
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trdproven, I agree
This is a historical motor...
There are much higher tech motors made today...
2JZ is OLD technology... I dont hear many talking ish about it. (well not on Toyota Boards, might be differant on the LSx boards)

BTW, no one caught my trivia quetion before.
I asked if anyone else know what other Legendary Toyota motor shares the same bore and stroke as the 3S?
Answer is the 2JZ
2JZ is 86mm bore x 86 mm stroke - 6 cyl / 3.0
3S is 86mm bore x 86 mm stroke - 4 cyl / 2.0
huh...

Where can I have the mounts input into a cad design so I can have a run of them made out of a solid piece of Aluminum or steel? They would look alot nicer...
Im thinking I will find someone next to the CNC machines I play with at the PRI show every year in Orlando
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Old 05-17-2012, 03:40 AM   #36
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Same with the 4U-GSE in the 86.
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Old 05-17-2012, 07:33 PM   #37
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is the hood going to close"??
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Old 05-18-2012, 05:01 AM   #38
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From what I can see, yes.
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Old 05-22-2012, 05:59 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrfunny107 View Post
is the hood going to close"??
I hope!

Got a little update, SMIM (sheet metal intake manifold) construction is slowly in progress!
Cut the base of the stock Caldina intake manifold, using it for a flange and base.
Started to shape the runners, Short runners with a big plenum is the goal.
There is really not alot of room left behind the motor in the 7th gen.
I snapped a couple pics of the progress so far...






Quote:
Originally Posted by mrfunny107 View Post
You know what would be funny... If this was all just a really really elaborate game of photoshop. But still this is pretty cool. U should have just gone all out and do AWD too.
I thought of you today so threw the start of this SMIM on the motor and snapped a pic;

Photoshop that!
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Old 05-23-2012, 06:33 AM   #40
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great work so far, I'm a former 3sgte guy as well, can't wait to see when this is done!
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Old 05-23-2012, 03:29 PM   #41
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i dont know why people have such a boner for the 3S-GTE. its old, heavy and only makes a little over 250. the wiring to get it to run will be a nightmare. the stock gauges wont work with its ECU. the engine is backwards from the ZZ family. you will need a transmission and axles, more $$$$. add all that up and you will spend more than twice what it will cost to build a 2ZZ to make more power.
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Old 05-23-2012, 04:17 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smaay View Post
i dont know why people have such a boner for the 3S-GTE. its old, heavy and only makes a little over 250. the wiring to get it to run will be a nightmare. the stock gauges wont work with its ECU. the engine is backwards from the ZZ family. you will need a transmission and axles, more $$$$. add all that up and you will spend more than twice what it will cost to build a 2ZZ to make more power.
BC it has a turbo, was in an AWD Celica and a MR2 YO!!!!!

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Old 05-23-2012, 04:26 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gts*Jason View Post
BC it has a turbo, was in an AWD Celica and a MR2 YO!!!!!

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Obviously!

I don't think this swap is worth it at all, I mean I guess it is unique. It's only worth doing if your gonna make it AWD and build the engine like the Fensport Celica.

(and jus kidding about the idiot. )
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Old 05-23-2012, 06:09 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smaay View Post
i dont know why people have such a boner for the 3S-GTE. its old, heavy and only makes a little over 250. the wiring to get it to run will be a nightmare. the stock gauges wont work with its ECU. the engine is backwards from the ZZ family. you will need a transmission and axles, more $$$$. add all that up and you will spend more than twice what it will cost to build a 2ZZ to make more power.
Well, good thing I am not doing the swap for you! haha!
And I am for sure not doing the swap to be baddest Celica in the land. I just wanted to do it, I like the 3SGTE.
All kidding aside, I am not trying to beat the 2ZZ, this is just what I wanted to do.

I have a trans, it is installed already
Axles are not that expensive, drive shaft shop is handling that for me. Measured, gave the spline count of inner and outer ant that is that.
This swap would be easier with a 3rd gen or older motor.

How much does a 2ZZ + C60 Fully dressed weigh?

Spend more?
lol... yha, so far I dont have much invested at all. It really is not that crazy of a swap. I know everyone that has not done it says it is crazy but really...
People are putting 2GR motors in mr2's, using the imobilizer ECU, immobilizer key and all. Come on guys... the is somewhat a basic swap with most of the challanges are just that not many have done it.
I have a long way to go though.
For the wiring I have in my possession ST215 EWD printouts and I have home access to TIS. I have already ordered the connectors that were cut from the harness I have, one was here next day and the other was backordered till next week

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Old 05-26-2012, 01:00 PM   #45
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SMIM is almost done!
Need a TB plate and provisions for all the stock sensors!









It is installed from the bottom, like I said not alot of space there but it fits nicely and will work pretty well with some cams and more airflow in the future.

This design may evolve in the future.
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Old 05-27-2012, 03:52 AM   #46
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The fensport celica is now up for sale For anyone who has 45.000,- Pounds.

http://www.fensport.co.uk/FensportCa...ica_GT4_X.aspx
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Old 05-27-2012, 07:59 AM   #47
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Should be interesting. Nice job so far.

I'm with the others in that there is no real reason to do this - the 2ZZ is a way better motor than the 3S. I could see doing a 1AR / 2AR / 2GR swap, but 3S seems like a waste of time these days considering the effort involved.

Still - good job so far and if this makes you happy then have at it. I hope you get it sorted without too many issues.
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Old 05-27-2012, 09:43 AM   #48
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Quote:
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How much does a 2ZZ + C60 Fully dressed weigh?
You are looking at 265 lbs for a fully dressed 2ZZ (including A/C, ALT, PS) and about 88 lbs for the C60 without axles. So all in all about 353 lbs or in other words the weight of an assembled 3S-GTE.
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Old 05-27-2012, 01:05 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSBoek View Post
You are looking at 265 lbs for a fully dressed 2ZZ (including A/C, ALT, PS) and about 88 lbs for the C60 without axles. So all in all about 353 lbs or in other words the weight of an assembled 3S-GTE.
Thanks for the responce!

That trans weight is about dead nuts.
I know I can lift a fully assembled 2ZZ short block on and off a engine stand, so you should be close on that weight
I will have a more exact estimate when I get ready to sell me 2ZZ long block

I am pretty sure a 3S and E153 is less than 600 lbs., maybe not much less .

The E153 Trans is F-ing HEAVY!

Now, if you have a high power 2ZZ you might be running a E153 swap anyways and then the ttl weight difference is less.

Would you say the a 2ZZ Long Block vs a 3SGTE Long block would be about 100 lbs difference?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Boosted2.0 View Post
Should be interesting. Nice job so far.

I'm with the others in that there is no real reason to do this - the 2ZZ is a way better motor than the 3S. I could see doing a 1AR / 2AR / 2GR swap, but 3S seems like a waste of time these days considering the effort involved.

Still - good job so far and if this makes you happy then have at it. I hope you get it sorted without too many issues.
When I am done I will post a full list of all involved with the swap, then we can make a real observation of the merit of this swap.
So far there has not been anything that crazy hard...
The SMIM is the most involved part so far... The mounts were not bad at all.
I have a real good handle on the wiring so far also.
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Old 05-27-2012, 01:11 PM   #50
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BTW I REALLY, REALLY want to do a 2GR swap next. It would be cool in the celica but the Mr2's look tempting!
Has anyone put 2GR heads on a 1GR block yet? I have had that idea since 08 and have not done anything about it, yet
Since I an dreaming I might as well tell you about my dream truck, the way a X-Runner should have been made;
With a 3UR 5.7

Edit, Sorry I had too... Since the 2GR and all these newer motors are so much better I wonder why people are still doing swaps like this in dedicated race cars;




I wonder why they pulled that new motor and all its goodness to put a old school, low tech 2J in it?
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