Good Street tires for GT daily driver & autocross?

[jgrogers]

The GT autocross setup thread has given me lots of ideas, and one of them is that I need better tires. I now have Hercules HP 4000's with about 40,000 miles on them. They've been good tires for daily driving, but not so good in my first 2 autocross events.

I would appreciate any recommendations for replacements to fit on my stock alloy rims. I don't think I'm ready for Race tires yet (maybe next year), so please hold off on those.

I've tried to review the tires thread on this site, the Tire Rack info, etc. but I'm confused and bewildered. I think the folks who participate in this area of the Forum are well qualified to help me decide.

Thanks in advance for any recommendations,
John

[conehugger]

Dunlops on stock rims. Not much else to do daily double duty in that size.

[Bitter]

So you need an all season tire that will handle snow in the winter but be good on the track? Such a tire does not exist. Get a second set of cheap wheels (even used steels) to run some track tires.

You either get a tire good at 3 seasons and OK in the winter and miserable on the track, a tire good in 4 seasons and useless on the track, or a tire somewhat useable on the track but absolutely unsafe in the snow.

[2KGTS]

Since you're in NY, I'd suggest you do what I do - and I know you may not be able to afford it yet. Do snows for your winters (Nov-April) and summer stickies the rest of the year. I run Dunlop Direzza Star Specs. I'd not go to R compounds if I were you. I'd do what I'm doing. But you might want to check what the street-tire class racers in GTs on here run before you select your summer stickies. Good luck and have fun!

[jgrogers]

Originally Posted by 2KGTS

Do snows for your winters (Nov-April) and summer stickies the rest of the year. I run Dunlop Direzza Star Specs.

Thanks for the ideas. Unfortunately, it appears that the Star Specs don't come in a size that will fit my stock GT rims. I think I need 195/60-15's.

[mrfunny107]

get a second set of wheels, that just really makes life easier. I wish I had that luxury though.

[theguy216]

Originally Posted by jgrogers

Thanks for the ideas. Unfortunately, it appears that the Star Specs don't come in a size that will fit my stock GT rims. I think I need 195/60-15's.

You can run the 195/55/R15's or the 195/50 R15's for the Star Specs. The "60" only refers to the height to width ratio of the tire. Running a 55 instead of a 60 will only means the tire has slightly less sidewall. The overall wheel+tire will be a smaller diameter. This may throw your speedometer off very slightly, but won't cause any problems

[narly charley]

Nitto NeoGens are nice...

[VRUM VR6]

I bought 195/55-15 Dunlop Z1 Star Spec tires right after buying my Celica about 2 months ago and it's probably THE best compromise between daily driving and all-out autocross tire. It's treating me quite well on both fronts. Go for it.

[WAM]

I assume you know the new RTF class is a true street tire version of stock class. The three primary candidate GT tires seem to be

Hankook R-S3 225/45-15
Toyo R1R 195/50-15
Dunlop Star Spec 195/50-15

No clear favorite has emerged yet. It's too early. All should meet your autocross needs, although the Toyo would probably not like multiple aggressive drivers in high temperatures. You'll have to decide what your other priorities are for street use.

[jgrogers]

Originally Posted by WAM

Hankook R-S3 225/45-15
Toyo R1R 195/50-15
Dunlop Star Spec 195/50-15

This is exactly the advice I was looking for!
Thanks very much,
John

[conehugger]

Originally Posted by WAM

I assume you know the new RTF class is a true street tire version of stock class. The three primary candidate GT tires seem to be

Hankook R-S3 225/45-15
Toyo R1R 195/50-15
Dunlop Star Spec 195/50-15

No clear favorite has emerged yet. It's too early. All should meet your autocross needs, although the Toyo would probably not like multiple aggressive drivers in high temperatures. You'll have to decide what your other priorities are for street use.

Really? No clear favorite? I think there are some Civic drivers that would disagree with you that. On a 6.5 rim the R1R is pretty much the dominate tire, and has been for the past several years. It actually works pretty well for daily driving too. RS3 in that size will not work very well pinched down on a stock rim. R1R can't be driven/used/support a vehicle in freezing conditions. They recommend that you default the tire and remove from vehicle when temps are around 18 degrees. Thus you are left with the Dunlop. Although if you are getting a second set of rims, and can store a set indoors for the winter then I would get the Toyos.

[theguy216]

I've heard the R1R only performs well in specific temperature ranges and tends to suffer from overheating if it doesn't get the chance to cool down between runs. When conditions are right it's the clear best performer, but the grip falls off quickly in sub-optimal conditions

From everything I've seen the Z1star specs are the best compromise tire. Not as frilly as the R1R in perfect conditions but it can operate well in a broad range of temperatures, doesn't lose too much grip when heated up and does pretty well in the rain.

[Bill Loring]

The Toyo and the Dunlop are also available from Tire Rack in the 195/55-15 size, which gets you closer to OE diameter.

195/60-15 - 24.2"
195/55-15 - 23.5"
195/50-15 - 22.7"

The Hoosier A6 is a 225/45-15, which runs about 22.8" diameter.

The advantage to the smaller tire is slightly quicker acceleration. The smaller sidewall might also lead to better transitional response. The disadvantage is that you'll run out of 2nd gear quicker. There are certainly times when I'd like my Hoosiers to be just a bit taller.

I personally have not driven these tires, so I can't make claims about what size might be best. There are some that say that the 195/50-15 is a "magic" size that works better than all others.

[WAM]

Originally Posted by conehugger

Really? No clear favorite? I think there are some Civic drivers that would disagree with you that. On a 6.5 rim the R1R is pretty much the dominate tire, and has been for the past several years. It actually works pretty well for daily driving too. RS3 in that size will not work very well pinched down on a stock rim. R1R can't be driven/used/support a vehicle in freezing conditions. They recommend that you default the tire and remove from vehicle when temps are around 18 degrees. Thus you are left with the Dunlop. Although if you are getting a second set of rims, and can store a set indoors for the winter then I would get the Toyos.

Really.

Yes, the R1R is the preferred tire for STC. But we are talking RTF. Most if not all trophies handed out to RTF in the recent San Diego National Tour and El Toro Pro Solo went to Hankook drivers. BTW, the Hankook is on ALL the national winning RTR cars, another class that we aren't.

Southern California is the hotbed for national STC types, and they advise me that their cars are lighter, stiffer and have wider rims. All of which affect tire choice. But hey, we gotta run something.

That said, I agree with you on choice. I bought Toyos for my GT. But to call them a clear favorite for the class? Need a winning RTF record for that. Don't have that here.

[WAM]

Originally Posted by Bill Loring

The There are some that say that the (Toyo) 195/50-15 is a "magic" size that works better than all others.

As I understand it, most of the competitive tires have a tougher rubber compound towards the carcass of the tire. So if you shave them, you lose most of the good rubber. The Toyo R1R, perhaps in that size only, has only good rubber (dunno why), so can be shaved for competition. There's a tire FAQ by Andy Hollis on SCCAForums that details all this stuff.

So yes, I bought mine from Tire Rack, shaved. I trailer my car. But wouldn't be so attractive if it needed to be a dual-use tire.

[2KGTS]

A conversation with an experienced Tire Rack rep usually gets a customer steered the right direction.

[sdsu_celica01]

I have been using the Falken Azenis RT-615K for a while now and absolutely love them. I've been running the 205/50/15 for autocross and they seem to do what I want for the most part and stay consistent.

[Bill Loring]

Just so you guys know, I'm a Tire Rack employee, but I'm an IT nerd. So I'm not totally up-to-date on these tires. If you're looking for specific help from a TR rep, I can get you in touch with some very good people.

[2004GTS]

Michelin Pilot Sport A/S plus. Best tires I've had in a long time. Quiet, grippy, speed rated, and decent in snow.

[jgrogers]

Thanks for all the help.

195/55-15 Dunlops ordered from TR at closeout price. Now to find some cheap wheels to mount them on...

Trying to get them on the car for the Evo school end of July in NJ.

[2KGTS]

Ouch, coulda bought lightweight wheels from TR and had them mount and balance... hope you find a deal on a set, though!

[WAM]

Originally Posted by jgrogers

Now to find some cheap wheels to mount them on...

http://www.nlmotoring.com/XXR-003-15...p/00356109.htm

Lightweight, forged, G-stock & RTF legal.

[jgrogers]

Originally Posted by 2KGTS

Ouch, coulda bought lightweight wheels from TR and had them mount and balance

Ouch indeed! I decided to get a seperate set of wheels a couple hours after placing the order, called TR, but the tires were already shipped :-(

The nlmotoring wheels make me drool a little, but since I am now a little over budget I'm looking at new steel wheels at discount tire for $220 total delivered.

Thanks again. You guys are great!

[Bill Loring]

TR doesn't have anything that's very lightweight in the 15x6.5 ET38 that we're looking for. I got a set of the Motegi Traklite wheels a while back, and wish that I'd bought a second set. I've been unable to locate any more. The best we have is the Focal F05 at 15.3lbs. It's cast, not forged.

Those XXRs look pretty nice.

All that said, TR has done wheel weight testing with GRM on two occasions, and we've been unable to quantify a difference in autocross times with lightweight wheels. The drivers could feel a difference, but it didn't translate into faster times. And these were very capable drivers, in a well set-up Miata.

So on the one hand, I don't think it's that important. But on the other hand, I won't be giving my Motegi wheels away anytime soon.

[jgrogers]

Found some that look interesting at Sears:
http://www.sears.com/ssc-performance...9&blockType=G9

I think they're the right size. Am I correct?

[Bill Loring]

The offset is close... OE is 45 IIRC, these say 35+. You're allowed .25", or 6-7mm.

The center bore is too big. So while they might fit on the car, they would not be hub-centric. That's not the end of the world, but hub-centric is better.

***** See correction below. OE offset is 39, as verified by my own OE wheels.

[WAM]

Originally Posted by Bill Loring

The offset is close... OE is 45 IIRC, these say 35+. You're allowed .25", or 6-7mm.

Searching this forum I found a half dozen statements that 38 is the stock OS and several more that said it was 39mm. No one except you has said it's 45mm. Can you double check that?

Unfortunately my car came with aftermarket wheels, so I can't do my own measurements. Had to rely on what I found on this forum, which isn't official. If warranted, I'll find a stock wheel to take official measurements from. How hard can it be?

[Bill Loring]

I apologize. I just looked at my OE wheels, and they are 39. I was going by our in-house database. It's usually correct, but given that it has literally tens of thousands of entries, occasional, it gets something wrong. Indeed, they may be listing 45 for clearance issues... it might give our system the leeway it needs to account for people using non-stock sizes, and still make sure they clear the fender liners and struts. I'll try to check on that tomorrow.

I use the stock split-spoke 15" wheels as my daily driver wheels. They have the diameter, width and offset cast into the wheel under the center cap. Since my caps haven't been on my car for years, it was pretty easy to double-check.

Sorry for the misinformation.

[WAM]

Thanks for checking Bill.

[jgrogers]

Sears wheels I posted are sold out, steel wheels are 15x6 :-(.

Thanks for the hub centric advice. I've heard the term but you inspired me to look it up. I also found hub centric rings, so I hope I can get those to fill the gap if I buy aftermarket wheels.

Back to the hunt...

[Bitter]

Don't VW steel wheels fit?

[Celica3]

Let me check with a guy I know. I might be able to find a set of stock wheels within your budget.

[mrfunny107]

yes the VW wheels fit but they are heavy as shit.

[Bitter]

Originally Posted by mrfunny107

yes the VW wheels fit but they are heavy as shit.

And strong as hell, which is why you put the DD tires on them.

[WAM]

Just a comment on those XXR-003 wheels I posted. They are out of production, permanently, and what's left is all there will be. Also, they're the only forged wheel that company makes, and they have no intention of making any more forged wheels. IE kind of a one-time offer -- and at close-out prices.


I'm guessing they're within a pound or two of Loring's Motegi race wheels and a fraction of the price. You might want to consider all this before buying junk wheels now and wanting something better in a year.

Bill, I did find Motegi's available on line. But @ $300 a pop IIRC. If you really want another set, google will find. (I didn't think to keep a link, sorry)

[jgrogers]

Originally Posted by Celica3

Let me check with a guy I know. I might be able to find a set of stock wheels within your budget.

Thanks for the offer, but Wow! Thanks to all the help and advice (hubcentric, etc), and a little bit of luck, I have found some stock alloy wheels at a very low price (around $200 total) at junkyards. A Google/Ebay search helped me find the dealers. 3 will be shipped and I will pick up the 4th today or tomorrow.

This group is amazing! You made this treasure hunt much easier.
Thanks,
John

[renfield90]

Originally Posted by WAM

Yes, the R1R is the preferred tire for STC. But we are talking RTF. Most if not all trophies handed out to RTF in the recent San Diego National Tour and El Toro Pro Solo went to Hankook drivers.

I can't speak for El Toro, but in SD the winning cars were heavier than us, which favors a tire that can take tons of heat (Hankook). It was cloudy/windy/cool the 2nd day and they all struggled with temps.

Dunlop offers the Star Spec in a 205/50/15 size that may work better than their 195/55/15, but I haven't been able to try it. (Nor do I want to. I'm done trying to compete seriously with an automatic.) The Dunlop is a tire that is good for pretty much any condition but excels at none of them. I'd say the best tire is the Hankook or the Toyo, depending on conditions.

[WAM]

This is interesting. I got the new Fastrack today and SCCA has proposed banning one of the three tires I suggested from street tire classes. They apparently consider the Toyo R1R 195/50-15 an unfair advantage over other brands and sizes.

Based on my one event on those tires, I think that's an over-reaction. But they sure stick well on the first stone-cold corner. After the first run I kept a lot of water on them and it worked out okay for a single driver. I can see where two drivers would present a problem. I'll do comp testing with a pair of new Hankooks this weekend. Both tires look outstanding for wet weather. The Toyo is a rain racetire pattern, and the Hankook has a pair of really wide circumferential grooves in addition to a pair of normal grooves.