Celica GT setup for G-stock SCCA solo 2 class

[andythomas]

Also it seemsthat devens has a 90 db sound limit I was wondering what dropping the muffler would bring me to. Not a huge deal if I can't drop it but I think it would help tame my throttle a bit since id be able to hear the engine note spike when it starts burning up the inside tire.

[Bill Loring]

Andy,

Sounds like you're learning the new car, glad the setup is going well so far. With the rear bar, the car should really transform. It takes some time to learn to drive it, but I think it really helps.

Regarding sound: I looked at some old data from the 2010 GLDiv events at Peru. It looks like there was data both with and without the muffler. With my aftermarket muffler, I was running around 79-80dB. Without, I was running about 89-92dB. What I don't know, is if I was using the straight pipe that I have, or if I was just dropping the muffler, and not putting anything back on. The 2011 data only had violations on it, no numbers for cars that were in compliance.

I'm on the wait list for the Toledo Pro, and I'm registered for the Peru tour. Nationals are still up in the air... I really want to go, but I have some things I need to work out.

I'm jealous of the competition that you have out there... I generally have just my co-driver. Although he is getting quicker, it's always good to have others out there to chase, and to push you.

Good luck to you at the east coast tour! Represent!

[Bill Loring]

I should note that my co-driver actually beat me last saturday. First time. He's definitely getting faster.

Oh, and if you see Mark again, say hi for me!

[jgrogers]

Originally Posted by WAM

5" Supertrapp disc-only muffler

I may not be ready for this mod yet, but for the future, could you please say how you installed this? Is it at the rear on the end of a "straight" pipe? A picture would be amazing if you're working on the car again. Also, can you compare the sound level to the stock muffler with the Supertrapp at it's quietest setting? If it's louder than stock, but not too loud, I can swap it at home the day before events.

I don't have the engineering/machinist skills available you mentioned, but I do know a good muffler guy.

Now if I could just find a way to repay the favors you and the others here have done for me with all the free advice...

I can recommend the Kobalt 12V/120V tire inflator from Lowes. I've only used it at one event so far, but it worked great. Fast inflation, and automatic shutoff at the pressure you set. (I set it 2 pounds over to get the desired pressure.)

Also, listening to advice here, I'm trying to get into an Evo school near to me.

Finally, drove a Miata recently, prefer the Celica :-).

Thanks,
John

[WAM]

Originally Posted by jgrogers

I may not be ready for this mod yet, but for the future, could you please say how you installed this?

Reread post 169 and look at the picture. When you remove the stock rear exhaust system what's left ends in a flange. (In front of the rear axle.) The Supertrapp (that model only) sits up against that flange and replace two bolts with longer ones to attach the unit to that flange.

It's a simple bolt-on with no mods or fab required. Easy DIY.

[mrfunny107]

just do a dump pipe. I see subarus on the street all the time with that pipe that curves down to the ground. It will only be loud on the inside as the sound waves bounce off the ground and back into the cabin.

[jgrogers]

Originally Posted by WAM

It's a simple bolt-on with no mods or fab required. Easy DIY.

Since it's that easy, I ordered one from Amazon.
Thanks,
John

[WAM]

Originally Posted by jgrogers

Since it's that easy, I ordered one from Amazon.
Thanks,
John

The only issue to watch for is their use of mechanical locking nuts. I recommend holding the (supplied ) allen wrench in a vice and then slowly run the nuts on with a deep socket. And be sure to use the supplied copper anti-seize compound. If you do it too fast or with an impact, the friction heat causes them to seize up. Just bring them to snug...no need to flatten the discs with excess torque.

[jgrogers]

Originally Posted by WAM

The only issue to watch for is their use of mechanical locking nuts.

Thanks. Got my Supertrapp today, and found the locking nuts... They start very hard.

Can you please tell me how many discs you are using?

It's a one hour drive to the events near me and I was thinking of running quiet with only a few discs and then maybe adding more at the event. That may not be easy to do, given their configuration. Maybe I'll have my local muffler shop make me a pipe to bring the Supertrapp to the rear bumper to make it easier.

[WAM]

Originally Posted by jgrogers

Thanks. Got my Supertrapp today, and found the locking nuts... They start very hard.

Can you please tell me how many discs you are using?

It's a one hour drive to the events near me and I was thinking of running quiet with only a few discs and then maybe adding more at the event. That may not be easy to do, given their configuration. Maybe I'll have my local muffler shop make me a pipe to bring the Supertrapp to the rear bumper to make it easier.

I'm using all 12. That will maximize top end but with minimal improvement to mid-range. There is a tuning range of typically 5-8 discs, where you can pick up mid-range without noticeable loss of top end. But it really needs a dyno session to nail it.

I wish I hadn't even used those locking nuts. A pain. I will probably get around to buying shorter bolts and double nut them. Much easier to install and remove. Don't bother with conventional lock nuts. The heat will melt the nylon. Just use two common hex nuts and jam them against each other. You definately want to do this if you envision changing it up regularly.

Personally, I'm okay with 12 discs on the street. But not a daily driver. Try dropping down to 6 discs and then remove one at a time until the performance seems to drop off. Then add back two for street use and another two for competition.

BTW, if you ever get one of those awkward couses that seems to be between gears for you, causing slow corner exits -- run it with the street setup on the SuperTrapp, More bottom end.

[andythomas]

Good news, I'm the new northeast tour champ in g stock. I battled it out with 6 other drivers one of which was a fellow celica owner from canada. My biggest competition was with a fairly well setup civic si and a supercharged cobalt. I took the win by 8 tenths over 2 days. Very close competition on both days raw times were a few thousands off but luckily I was the most consistent. Setup was the same as my last local dc event 2.6 degrees up front 1.5 out back with a little bit of toe out front and rear. 225/205 staggered hoosier setup 45/32 psi pressures. The courses were quite fast with me hitting limiter 2-3 times a run. I'm sure the guys with more power were hitting the 80s. There were a lot of fast offsets followed by hard braking zones. The car was a little pushy but stable thru the fast stuff I would have loved to have my new rear bar to help limit some wheelspin since I had plenty of that. I think its time to try something new so I'm going to test fit some 275s up front once I get the rear sway bar and see if I can get away with running 205s in the back. A lot of testing is in order so hopefully ill get some time to go racing. My lack of seat time in the car is my biggest disadvantage right now so I need the most improvement there. I'll update everyone on my thoughts of new additions to the car as they get added.

[Bill Loring]

Congrats, Andy! Great job! And it's very cool indeed to see TWO Celicas at one event.

Rob Carpenter was trying to convince me to run the 275 Hoosiers up front... I never did. I did wide tires like that on a really old HS Civic way back in the day, and didn't like what they did for transitional response. But hey, let me know what you think. Of course, finding someone to mount them might be the hard part.

I'm getting excited to see some national driving at the Peru Tour. Only four cars in class so far, but one other Celica, and Jonathan Rogers is a national contender in his SRT Neon. I'm just hoping that we get some women to come over to GSL, to give my daughter some competition.

I've got new OE rotors, pads and shoes, just need to put them on. I'm going to replace the brake fluid and probably the trans fluid. I'll have a brand new set of Hoosiers (last year's Nationals win - Thanks Hoosier!!). The car will be ready.

I've got a local this weekend at Lake Michigan College, with my daughter and co-driver Mark. Then I think Mark and I might do a NASA event at Tire Rack the following weekend, just to see how they put on an event. I've got three sets of very worn Hoosiers that I hope will last through those two events. I might bring 6 tires to each, just in case we cord some.

[mrfunny107]

God the new RE01R's are amazing on not sealed concrete!!!!! My first time of the day was a 61.something and I droped to a 56.2 on my last run! I still wasnt close to the leaders of a 54 something, but I am catching up. I think I finally dialed in my tire pressure at 36 in the front and 38 in the rear. Full hard KONI in front and Full hard KONI in rear, Hotchikis comp sway rear hard and front soft.

I also broke my mental limit and just pushed it hard. I was a tenth of a second off the 3rd place TDI jetta. I know Ill have him next event; too bad thats not until august.

Still amazes me that VRUM still beat me by 5 seconds on a more stock car than I.

[Celica3]

Originally Posted by Bill Loring

I'm getting excited to see some national driving at the Peru Tour. Only four cars in class so far, but one other Celica,...

Me too. Hoping to get a co-driver before the event.

... the "other" Celica guy.

[andythomas]

Hoping to grab some 275 throw aways from Smf champ brian karwan to test fit. Mounting shouldn't be a problem since I've always mounted my own tires at the shop I work at. The local racers always bring me their big tires with small wheels. My 225/45/13s were always the hardest to mount. I wish I could make Peru to compete with you guys but my vacation is being saved for the pro finale and nationals. Right now I'm still in for Toledo in str but nationals is up in the air if ill drive the celica or the s2000. I guess ill see what the next couple months brings. Good luck everyone at their upcoming events.

[Bill Loring]

Originally Posted by Celica3

Me too. Hoping to get a co-driver before the event.

... the "other" Celica guy.

Hey, cool! I'm looking forward to meeting some of the people I've been talking with here!

I just found out that I got into the Toledo Pro, so that's cool. Although there is a lot of negative feedback about how that all happened. They've just upped the entry cap, and are now having competition on Friday as well. People who had already arranged travel plans are scrambling. Seems like kind of an ugly situation.

Andy - I didn't realize you worked in a tire shop. That's excellent. There are times that I wish that they would let me mount my own at Tire Rack. But they don't let the IT nerds near mount and balance equipment. Too bad, I think I'd be good at it.

[Celica3]

I was on the waiting list for the Toledo Pro but decided to bail on it since I didn't go to Blytheville and nobody was registered. Looking forward to having some good GS compeition in Peru. GS seems to have dried up in the southeast.

[VRUM VR6]

Today may be the last day or so to register(?) therfore I'm gonna pull the trigger on this before it's too late. I'll be in RTF class and based on the level of competitors that I see there... I'd be lucky to trophy at this one. It'll be my first taste of a Divisional - so I'll treat this as a learning experience.

My Direzzas are already getting ugly. I daily drive them and this will be my 15th & 16th autocross on them. Speaking of which... I think my front toe is a bit off which isn't helping the wear.

I'm really hoping some other Celicas decide to make this trek with me!

Cheers,

John

[mrfunny107]

pay me.

[theguy216]

Good luck to all the guys running the Pro event! I was seriously considering making the trek myself, but our region is having it's own two day Governors cup so I decided I'd pass on the long drive.

I'll be running the FR-S this weekend, just got a set of Dunlops for the car, interested to see how competitive the car is in RTR. So far it looks like my main competition will be the S2000's. ran against one last weekend on the Stock Michelin Primacy's and he was about 3/4 of a second ahead of me

I'm hoping to get to some more events in the Celica, but I'm still waiting on my Hotckis swaybar to come in and I've got a bolt on the right side rear that's frozen, throwing the toe off

Once the alignment problems are fixed I'll probably throw the Dunlops from the FR-S on the car, though the 17inch wheels aren't going to help my acceleration much. Still should be faster than the S. Drives on the Celica right now though

[VRUM VR6]

That is too sweet! My plan A for this season was to buy my first new car... a base model Subaru BRZ, but when the time came to place the order I went with the ~$6k car over the $26k one (after a common sense conversation with the spouse of course). I wish that I could have pulled it off.

BTW, I did run the CenDiv this weekend in RTF with the Celica and this is the first event I've been to where sound levels were measured. FYI, the Celica GT with the axle-back exhaust completely removed registered 84-86 decibels out on the course... even though I was the loudest RTF car, that isn't bad by any means!

[mrfunny107]

I wonder what I am at????

[andythomas]

I'd love to get some g stock action in at Toledo but my str co driver is depending on me. I still have so little time in the car and no prep. If by chance I get the car to my liking by late august ill race it at nationals but its very unlikely. Work schedule is killing my autocrossing this year still waiting on my hotchkis rear bar as well, considering going with the slightly smaller bar just to help the car out in any way. See everyone at Toledo ill have the celica there so you can pick me out of the crowd. I'll probably be with those rowdy philly scca guys.

[WAM]

Is there a consensus as to minimum fuel tank level for autocross? Obviously lighter is better, but does the tank still draw near empty when over 1g?

[mrfunny107]

I was told 1/3 tank because anything less messes with the fuel pump.

[Bitter]

Minimum of 1/4 to 1/3 tank. I've whipped around in a parking lot to pull a U turn and killed it on anything less.

[mrfunny107]

hey when you going to autox with me?????

[jgrogers]

Originally Posted by Bill Loring

At big events, I remove both my trailer hitch, and the back section of the exhaust.

Installed an Eibach rear sway bar yesterday and while I had the muffler off tested the Supertrapp 5" disc only unit recommended here with 4 discs in it (minimum recommended by company rep I talked to).

It's too loud for me for daily driving, but probably good for driving to events and for autocross.

So I'm thinking I'll swap the muffler and the Supertrapp at home before I go, but it was very hard to get the muffler off of the rubber doughnuts, even after spray lubing them.

Any suggestions how I can make the swap easier? Can I replace the doughnuts with something else? Just practice until I get better at it?

[andythomas]

Originally Posted by jgrogers

Installed an Eibach rear sway bar yesterday and while I had the muffler off tested the Supertrapp 5" disc only unit recommended here with 4 discs in it (minimum recommended by company rep I talked to).

It's too loud for me for daily driving, but probably good for driving to events and for autocross.

So I'm thinking I'll swap the muffler and the Supertrapp at home before I go, but it was very hard to get the muffler off of the rubber doughnuts, even after spray lubing them.

Any suggestions how I can make the swap easier? Can I replace the doughnuts with something else? Just practice until I get better at it?

Id try using a little white lithium grease on the rubber it might keep the rubber slicker longer also I actually ground down the hanger heads to make removal a little easier. Anti seize on the flange bolts helps as well. How do you like the rear sway bar so far I'm curious how the slightly smaller rear sway bars compare to the hotchkis 25mm bar.

[mrfunny107]

weld on a v-band style clamp. Thats the easiest solution, or be a boss and DD it with no muffler. Your still well under the legal limits anyway.

[jgrogers]

Originally Posted by andythomas

I actually ground down the hanger heads to make removal a little easier.

I was thinking of cutting off the heads... will look at that further.

Originally Posted by andythomas

How do you like the rear sway bar so far I'm curious how the slightly smaller rear sway bars compare to the hotchkis 25mm bar.

So far it seems great, but only have a few minutes of slalom practice with it. I'm going to the Evo phase 1 school on 6/21 and can report back after that.

Originally Posted by mrfunny107

weld on a v-band style clamp.

I'll be at a muffler experts garage tomorrow, and will consult on this option with him.

Thanks for the ideas.

[VRUM VR6]

The biggest problem with taking the stock exhaust off regularly are those prohibitive mushroom caps on the stock exhaust hanger ends. Yes, remove them or buy another exhaust without them like I did... way easier!

With the new exhaust with lubed hangers (I use clear bearing grease) and stainless steel 4-inch bolts that I bought at Ace Hardware - I'm able to remove/install the exhaust on ramps in less than 10 minutes... it's a piece of cake now!

Everything axle-back is stainless now.

[WAM]

Originally Posted by mrfunny107

weld on a v-band style clamp. Thats the easiest solution

How will that help with the rubber hangars? They're actually quite easy if you lube them with anything (I used WD40) and figure out exactly where to place a lever or pry bar on each one. There is a way to lever each off and once you work it out, it will just be a few seconds each hangar.

I used an 18" pry bar and a variety of short 2x4 blocks as fulcrums.

Otherwise, perhaps you could replace them with very short lengths of chain that easily slip on and off the rods.

[mrfunny107]

^ he was worried about gaskets and shit like that vbands dont have a gasket. SHit I havent gone autox in a month too much school shit and I just bought a $200 Engine for my RC car.

[donteatbugs]

I use channel loc pliers to remove the rubber hangers and an electric ratchet on the bolts. Takes about 5 minutes to to while changing my tires.

[conehugger]

Wd-40 on the hanger and the donut just slides off. The more you do it the easier they get to remove. I would not remove the nub. The donuts are really not that hard to remove. The rear hanger I pulled off the muffler and left it on the car. The drivers side and front hanger I pulled off the car and left with the muffler. If they have not been off before then run a flat head screw driver between the hanger and the rubber to break any bonding that has occurred.

[jgrogers]

Thanks for all the ideas about the muffler.

Thanks to all the great advice I've received here, I've upgraded my car some and I'm heading to the Evo school in NJ tomorrow to upgrade the driver :-) .

Car upgrades:
Dunlop Direzza Star Spec tires mounted on extra stock alloy wheels. (Only used for events.)
Eibach 22mm rear sway bar.
Koni adjustable front strut inserts.
Small decals on rear side windows.
Alignment (Left, Right):
Front:
Caster 2.2, 2.6
Camber -0.9, -0.9
Toe 0,0.05
Rear:
Camber -1.5, -1.7
Toe 0.15,0.15

I discussed some of the alignment tips I've seen here with my aligner, and he had some info of his own. The settings above are his initial recommendations.

My very limited testing on empty public streets has shown great results. Now for the real test on Saturday...

[WAM]

If you're a hard charger into tight corners, I'd keep an eye on the front sidewall scrub pattern. I use a LOT more negative camber than you do up front, and my scrub-over seems just about right. Maybe 3/8" up from the contact patch. If I were only running .9 degrees I think I'd be grinding the name off the sidewall.

[conehugger]

Hopefully that Evo school will fix that grinding off the outside edge. That being said I think you might need some more camber, like -1.5 in front.

[VRUM VR6]

The camber sounded too low to me as well, but then I realized the much higher caster numbers will make up for it as you turn.

Have fun at Evo school! My guess is you'll learn lots!

[WAM]

"Higher caster", hmmm. AFAIK caster isn't adjustable on these cars within stock class restrictions so I've never even measured mine.

Or are there provisions for factory caster adjustment I'm unaware of? Obviously we can't use camber plates etc in stock. Can't do anything alignment-wise that isn't in the factory service manual.

[conehugger]

There is no adjustment for Caster other than replacing the items that are broken or bent that are giving you more caster. But this would move it back to a stock range. I don't think that 2.2 is out of stock range, but then again I never really paid attention to stock caster to much, except I added more with lower offset bushings for STC, along with the upper camber plate. None of which is legal for stock.

[Celica3]

Looks like we have a decent turnout for GS in Peru. It will be good to have a class eligible for contingency.

[jgrogers]

Well, the Evo school was great! Great instructors, Great site, very good weather, Great hosting by the local club (Southern NJ?). With the things I learned I was able to go from a 51 second clean "base" run in the early morning to either a low 46 or maybe an even 45 in the afternoon (results table is not clear to me). I drew out the course after and made notes of the instructors tips at appropriate points, so I wouldn't forget. I should be able to apply the instruction to upcoming courses with similar elements.

Also, with the suspension upgrades and the new tires, the car handles great! Much more fun to drive than before! As an example, I was able to go through a Chicago Box about twice as fast as before, once I had enough confidence with the car to try it.

Next:
Try to pass on some of the things I've learned to my son. Since I'm not allowed to ride with him in an autocross, I'll have to do it during a walkthrough and watching from the sidelines.

Tuning with tire pressure, Koni front strut adjustments, and alignment.

Thanks again for all the help here. Without it, I would not have taken the school or been as successful with the upgrades.

[Bill Loring]

Celica3 - Yeah, we made minimum number for the Pro Solo as well. Free tires are good! And Toyota pays out for 1st place at the Pro as well.

jrogers - That's so great that the school worked well for you! It's too bad your son can't ride along at your local region. My club is small enough that I don't think anyone would care. My daughter and I ride with each other from time to time, and it's been very useful to her. Of course she runs in the ladies class. But my co-driver and I have also shared rides. Now that he's getting so much closer to me, I'm not sure I want to continue that.

Do they not allow ride-alongs at all, or is it just the idea that you're getting additional looks at the course in the same class? If that's the case, then see if you can get him into another competitor's car, from another class. Even if it's after he's already run, it can be very informative.

[jgrogers]

Originally Posted by Bill Loring

Do they not allow ride-alongs at all,

Bill,
I think the reason is that I have no experience. They allow and encourage novices to take experienced drivers along for guidance. I think I heard that the total experience time of the 2 people in the car must be maybe 3 years due to safety concerns.

[jgrogers]

OK, now that I have the adjustable Koni front struts in my car I don't know what to do with them

I think I remember reading something from Bill about adjusting his, in this forum, but I can't find it now.

I did find this web page: http://www.timskelton.com/lightning/...orrections.htm which seems to say that adjusting them can help to correct under or over steer. On Saturday I ran the morning with the shocks set mid way between soft and firm and in the afternoon with them set to max firm. I think maybe I had more understeer in the afternoon, but I may have just been pushing the car harder.

Any advice on how I can use the adjustability to tune the handling?

[jgrogers]

Originally Posted by WAM

If I were only running .9 degrees I think I'd be grinding the name off the sidewall.

I may not be charging corners as hard... I started the day with 42 lbs air in my Dunlop Direzza's in front and 35 in the rear. Checking the chalk (gone now) and the wear you can see in the pictures linked below, I may have been near to the edge of usable tread. This is the first autocross on these tires, so the wear you see is all from that day. It seems the wear is further down the sidewall on the LF tire, I think due to the 2 "circle" elements in the course.

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113116...CMyp5dCF_cOwUg

I think the aligner said that to get more camber in the front, I'd have to get the special bolts mentioned earlier in this topic.

Thanks again.

[Bill Loring]

You can use the fronts to fine tune understeer, but it also affects transition response, and inside tire spin. Stiffer will mean more understeer, quicker transitions, and more inside tire spin.

On my car, I run my front Koni SA shocks at 1/4 turn off from full stiff. The rear Koni DA (Priebe/Eckert valving) shocks are at full soft. I have the Eibach 25mm rear bar, with stock bushings and mounting points. At some point I might try to soften the rear bar by modifying the end links. I'm pretty sure that's legal.

Before the rear bar was installed, I generally ran the fronts near full soft. Sometimes turning them up 1/4 or 1/2 turn.

I also have a lot more camber up front, so inside wheelspin has historically been more of an issue for me. The new rear bar allows stiffer front settings, which has been good. We'll see how well all of this works on Friday at the Pro Solo.

And yes, if you want more camber, you'll want to order the camber bolts. The part numbers are listed in the autocross forum somewhere. I can come up with them if you can't find them. The bolts are cheap.

[WAM]

Heh, as someone had to point out to me, the info on the alignment bolts is on post #13 of this thread.

So Bill, did you have anything specific in mind for modifying the SB links to reduce the overall rate? ADDCO used to sell end links with springs on them, but the attachment to bar and chassis was different and wouldn't work on our cars.

I have rubber washers softening the rear SB rate, but as my only course disasters have involved pushing off-line at high speed (have never been even close to spinning the car), I think I'll now start stiffening the rear bar.