Need advice on building the block

[Jannelle]

Hey guys,

After finally having the car tuned at MWR, the engine blew 6 days later on my first 3rd gear pull in over 2 years.
The engine was still knocking in a LOT of cells when I left MWR.
One piston is not even circular anymore and the cylinder is done.

I am going to order sleeves and pistons, along with new MWR rod bearings.
Didn't inspect the rods and crank yet, I hope everything is still fine down there. The valves look allright but I'm going to have Many look at everything.

I think that my head was "shaved" before by previous owner because I was getting 235 PSI of compression in every cylinder.
I currently have the TK.com kit with GT28RS @ 9-10 PSI

I want to know what CR I should get for the Wisecos.
I was looking at the 10.5:1 but since my head gives a little more compression, would it be "safer" to go with 8.8:1 ? What would be the loss?

And I probably plan on boosting a little more with the built block. Something to get close to 300whp. (I dyno'd at 230whp but Matt @ MWR said it was because of the old TK.com exhaust manifold. I will probably order their new cast 4-1 one very soon.)

Let me know what you think would be the best.

Thanks
Max

[Boosted2.0]

Sorry to hear it!

Only 300? Definitely 10.5:1 if you get 93 octane where you are.

[Jannelle]

Originally Posted by Boosted2.0

Only 300?

Good question. haha

[Illusive]

I'm curious what tuning solution you chose? Was this an AEM FIC?

[Jannelle]

Originally Posted by Illusive

I'm curious what tuning solution you chose? Was this an AEM FIC?

Nope, I'm on the PFC.

[Illusive]

Interesting...

Did you have it tuned on pump 93 octane gas?

According to Michigan their premiump pump is 93
http://www.michigan.gov/mdard/0,4610...3247--,00.html

I'm assuming you all get 93 in canada?

[Jannelle]

I used 93 when I was in Michigan, but here we get 94 at the pump but I think the quality is better in the USA.

Didn't have time to inspect valves, rods and crank yet, but I have a spare block with other rods and crank so it shouldn't be a problem.

Right now my plan should be something like:
New 4-1 cast manifold from TK.com (just ordered it) that should be a lot better than my current log type one (picture below)
Darton sleeves
Wiseco pistons (10.5:1 or 8.8:1, not sure yet)
MWR rod bearings (which I already have but they may be damaged)
MWR main bearings (which I already have but they may be damaged)
Walbro 255LPH fuel pump
New spark plugs BKR7E

Do I need a new complete gasket kit? I mean, the engine only ran like 3000 kms.
Might change my valves for the MWR ones while I'm at it but I'm not sure it's worth it, we'll see if there is any damage to my OEM ones first.

Any input is appreciated. Thanks

[Illusive]

Originally Posted by Jannelle

I used 93 when I was in Michigan, but here we get 94 at the pump but I think the quality is better in the USA.

Didn't have time to inspect valves, rods and crank yet, but I have a spare block with other rods and crank so it shouldn't be a problem.

Right now my plan should be something like:
New 4-1 cast manifold from TK.com (just ordered it) that should be a lot better than my current log type one (picture below)
Darton sleeves
Wiseco pistons (10.5:1 or 8.8:1, not sure yet)
MWR rod bearings (which I already have but they may be damaged)
MWR main bearings (which I already have but they may be damaged)
Walbro 255LPH fuel pump
New spark plugs BKR7E

Do I need a new complete gasket kit? I mean, the engine only ran like 3000 kms.
Might change my valves for the MWR ones while I'm at it but I'm not sure it's worth it, we'll see if there is any damage to my OEM ones first.

Any input is appreciated. Thanks

MWR valves may need to have the tips machined to get proper clearance.
We always recommend Ferrea for our 2zz builds. They flow better and have no fitment issues.

I'd stick with 10.5:1 weiscos with a 300-350 hp goal

300+ you will need / want return system with an FPR, unless you already have it.

Also plan on going through a transaxle or two at 300-350 hp, depending on your driving style / habbits.

Oh and you may want to examine your exhaust set up and make sure you have a proper 3" exhaust to support the power level.

[Smaay]

actually i would go with the lower compression and and just raise the boost. just my opinion, what i want to know is why were you knocking leaving MWR after tuning.

[Gts*Jason]

I would change my plug type as well, NGK V-POWER plugs are a far better design, cost less, but dont last just as long.

[Illusive]

Originally Posted by Smaay

actually i would go with the lower compression and and just raise the boost. just my opinion, what i want to know is why were you knocking leaving MWR after tuning.

Yes but you wouldn't be happy with 300 to the tire

With 10.5:1 they will get better spool up and better off boost response compared to 8.8:1, and they will be able to attain 300-350 with that CR on pump gas with the disco.

[many]

Originally Posted by Smaay

what i want to know is why were you knocking leaving MWR after tuning.

I've been telling him that since the beginning! And the thing that pisses me of is that we had over 20 hours of street tune on the cruise range and up to 6000 rpm with it being very dialed in(rescaled map, idle, low and high rpm cruising).....and they just tossed that MAP out and went with one of their own. and did a complete tune (apparently) in 3 hours.

[Gts*Jason]

Some questionable work coming out of MWR as of late.

[Jannelle]

Originally Posted by many

and did a complete tune (apparently) in 3 hours.

Originally Posted by Gts*Jason

Some questionable work coming out of MWR as of late.

To be honest I wasn't satisfied at all when I left the place.
First, they didn't allow me to go in the shop during the tuning session, their insurance could not allow it...
Second, Matt was not able to get the lift engaging "smoothly".
Third, he comes in the office and tells me : "Your wastegate line just burned and boost went up but I think I caught it early enough so there is no engine damage" ........
He then spends 1 hour fixing my vacuum lines and letting the car cool down a bit.
Then, the session goes on. After 5 hours total, he comes in the office and says : "I managed to lower lift engagement to 6500 rpm and it feels smooth, you're all set up and good to go!" and he brings me in the shop to show me one last pull.
230whp 190wtq, but "it could've been worst because of the TK.com manifold."

I leave the place. I'm not even on WOT and my check engine light starts flashing!
Getting on the highway, I press the pedal a little in 5th gear, again the god damn knocking light!!! I get the laptop out and put fuel in these god damn poor cells!!! The lower portion of the map (high loads) was completely off. Not a single cell was rich enough.
I spend 3 days adding fuel to the map to finally be able to drive around without knocking everytime I step on the gas.
And then, 6 days later I'm on a little ride with a buddy of mines on my way to Many's to give him a little ride... (haha) FIRST TIME I FLOOR MY 3RD GEAR IN OVER 2 YEARS, my buddy following me texts me and says I need to stop there's white smoke everywhere. (Highest knock registered on that pull was 30.)

Anyways, the future should be brighter... !
I decided to just get the car running properly before raising the boost. I'll get the 10.5:1 Wisecos.
@ 9 PSI I "should" be in the 250-280whp range, depending on how "better" the newer manifold is. I don't think I need a fuel pump upgrade for that range.

And then, sometimes like next year, since the block will be good to go, I would get the FPR and fuel pump to get some higher numbers @ higher boost.

Complete setup would be:
Wisecos 10.5:1
Darton sleeves
MWR main and rod bearings
CircuitWorx oil pump gears in a new OEM pump
New camshafts and rockers from last winter
New plugs
Upgraded TK.com manifold
GT28RS @ 9 PSI
3" exhaust
Southbend TZ clutch with OEM flywheel

Thanks a lot for the inputs! Very appreciated!

[Gts*Jason]

Your pockets werent deep enough for them to give a shat i guess

[Boosted2.0]

Wow.... we spend about a day (10-12) hours on the dyno and another day street tuning our complete maps. We must be slow or something.

Mind you we do charge from $750-1200 for tuning maps like that

[Boosted2.0]

Originally Posted by many

I've been telling him that since the beginning! And the thing that pisses me of is that we had over 20 hours of street tune on the cruise range and up to 6000 rpm with it being very dialed in(rescaled map, idle, low and high rpm cruising).....and they just tossed that MAP out and went with one of their own. and did a complete tune (apparently) in 3 hours.

In fairness we might have chucked your map too. We do all of our scratch tunes from our own basemaps usually.

But we would have re-done the highway and street tuning before we gave it back. I won't agree to a 3 hour tune on a turbo car either. We do it right or not at all.

[Jannelle]

Order processed with MWR this morning.
10.5:1 Wiseco pistons
Darton sleeves
255 LPH fuel pump
MWR rod bearings
ARP head stud kit
BKR7E V-Power spark plugs

And I received the exhaust manifold this afternoon! Doesn't look like a BIG improvement from the top view but the bottom view shows a better transition...

[Boosted2.0]

Yeah we just put one on an auto GT for a customer - the new cast manifold from TK is quite nice. The wrinkle coated IC pipes were nice too.

I will refrain from commenting on the rest of the kit.

[UniQgTs]

I personally love the guys at MWR, I think that Matt and Gary do a great job and treat customers with respect. I do have to say since I was there years ago that I feel that their business has switched from working more on Celicas (customeres with less money) to Lotus's (bigger spenders) and this has put us Celica owners on the lower end of the totem pole and possibly made us a little less important. This is just my speculation. The one change that I personally see is when I contact them for a quick chat. There is no time for it and only an email will be answered in a timley mannor. I understand that time is money and if you take phone call questions all day nothing will get done, but when a customer has spent over 15k at your shop I think you can give me 5-10min of your time. My question to you Janelle is why would you go and spend over 1K in parts at MWR after your motor just blew from a supposed careless tune by MWR? If you felt that they didnt really give a F about your tune or car why go back and reorder parts from them? I'm also very interested to see when MWR chimes in here .

[Jannelle]

Originally Posted by UniQgTs

why would you go and spend over 1K in parts at MWR after your motor just blew from a supposed careless tune by MWR?

Because I contacted Wiseco and Darton directly and MWR has better prices because they order a lot of these parts...And I don't get to have all the suppliers you get in the USA up here...

And to clarify, I'm not saying the blown engine is entirely their fault. My engine was running on a barely tuned map for like two years keeping it under 4,5k rpm. I was getting knock sometimes, but compression was completely perfect the week before I went to Michigan.
The thing is, I drove 1200 kms to get to them because I thought I was going to have the best tune I could find in my "area". I went there prepared to spend over 1k$ + selling them a spare block for a couple hundreds...4 hours total was the result with an "all set up and good to go".

Sure the guys there were great and everything. Matt gave me some tips for the vaccuum lines and some other things that could possibly cause trouble in a distant future. He even gave me a caliper bolt from HIS car because I had lost one on the road trip and he didn't have any in stock.

But yes, the shop was filled with Lotus with big turbo setups...

[Boosted2.0]

Originally Posted by UniQgTs

I personally love the guys at MWR, I think that Matt and Gary do a great job and treat customers with respect. I do have to say since I was there years ago that I feel that their business has switched from working more on Celicas (customeres with less money) to Lotus's (bigger spenders) and this has put us Celica owners on the lower end of the totem pole and possibly made us a little less important. This is just my speculation. The one change that I personally see is when I contact them for a quick chat. There is no time for it and only an email will be answered in a timley mannor. I understand that time is money and if you take phone call questions all day nothing will get done, but when a customer has spent over 15k at your shop I think you can give me 5-10min of your time. My question to you Janelle is why would you go and spend over 1K in parts at MWR after your motor just blew from a supposed careless tune by MWR? If you felt that they didnt really give a F about your tune or car why go back and reorder parts from them? I'm also very interested to see when MWR chimes in here .

I have never had problems ordering parts from them - the one or two times they made a mistake they made it right immediately.

And we have bought a TON of stuff from MWR over the years.

I have always been very pleased with the customer service.

[UniQgTs]

I'm with you Dave, I always go through them for my parts and I've always been pleased I actually just ordered from them yesterday. Janelle's story is something that I would never expect from a customer leaving MWR thats why I am interested to hear what MWR has to say about this, not to say that I think Janelle is lying or something, but for the car to be knocking not even a hr down the road is ridiculous. I'd be interested to hear about what the other projects are that have been questionable coming out of there. I havent seen anything posted on here, but this one.

[Jannelle]

Originally Posted by UniQgTs

but for her car

his.... haha

[many]

Originally Posted by Boosted2.0

I will refrain from commenting on the rest of the kit.

Dude why?!!!!!! You don't like the rubbing of the pipes all over the place, The placement of the air filter or the clocking of the turbo?

[Jannelle]

^^

[Boosted2.0]

Originally Posted by many

Dude why?!!!!!! You don't like the rubbing of the pipes all over the place, The placement of the air filter or the clocking of the turbo?

Actually it was more the missing fasteners, horrible IC mounting brackets, wrong manifold shipped with the kit (1ZZ instead of 2ZZ) and the downpipe that we had to modify because it had about an inch of interference with the motor mount.

But now that you mention it I don't love those other aspects either.

That being said, it is still 1,000,000 times better than the e-bay chinese generic kits, and the manifold (once they sent the right one) was actually a very nice design compared to the old log manifold.

[monkeywrench]

We did tune that car at MWR. When a 2ZZ comes in with that type of manifold we always tell the customer up front that there will be some issues, period. First, it will not make much power considering the amount of boost. Second, the VVL cannot be engaged below 6k. I've had to go as high as 6700rpm.

The log (or incorrectly paired log) manifolds simply do not work on the 2zz engine. The 2zz has lots of lift and overlap and requires a proper 4-1 tubular manifold. It doesn't necessarily need to be exactly equal length but it needs to have smooth flow. You can see looking at the pictured manifold that there will be major issues with it. Pairing 1-2 and 3-4 cylinders is fundamentally wrong. We generally see 210-230whp from "other" kits with that type of manifold at the same boost level as a MWR turbo kit that makes 280+ whp.



Jannelle's car tuned in fairly well considering the manifold issue. A/F ratios were safe throughtout and ignition timing was conservative. Boost (non-adjustable) was a bit higher than I recommend for a stock 2zz engine and I told the customer that. During the tuning there were a couple of issues with the customer's turbo kit and turbo install. One was that the vacuum line to the wastegate was routed right next to the turbine housing. This was underneath the turbo in a location we could not see during the pre-dyno inspection. We look the car over the best we can but if we don't do the install we can't guarantee that everything is done right obviously. The vacuum line of course burned through causing excessive boost on one pull. As with ALL of the other pulls that day (and the street tune afterward), NO excessive knock was recorded on that pull. I let off immediately when the boost went higher than normal and the engine was still functioning normally after that pull and made several more pulls with no loss of power or smoke.

The story this customer told me was that he drove it home with it running fine (12 hours). Some time after that he noticed excessive oil smoke and the PFC started indicating knock. I believe the engine was still running well and compression was still good so a faulty turbo was suspected. Oil in the intake will cause knock. That is the last I heard of the diagnosis of the issue. The customer is 12 hours away so obviously bringing it here for inspection was not possible.

What happened? Did the higher than recommended boost and possibly higher than stock compression (never mentioned to MWR by customer) break some ring lands later on? Did the turbo simply fail, dumping oil into the engine causing massive detonation? If I had the parts here I could tell you. Firsthand, I can only say that the car was tuned conservatively while at MWR and never indicated any knock at all during the tuning session.

>>Jannelle: And to clarify, I'm not saying the blown engine is entirely their fault. My engine was running on a barely tuned map for like two years keeping it under 4,5k rpm. I was getting knock sometimes, but compression was completely perfect the week before I went to Michigan.

The engine had had a tough life.

>>I went there prepared to spend over 1k$ + selling them a spare block for a couple hundreds...4 hours total was the result with an "all set up and good to go".

Just to clarify, 4 hours of tuning is $550. There would be absolutely no benefit in spending more time than that in this case. We have good base maps to start from when tuning, even for "other" kits so we're not reinventing the wheel every time. And the road test to be sure it drove smoothly and safely in real world conditions was done at no charge.

We have and will continue to do anything we can to help Jannelle get the car put back together better than ever. There are no hard feelings between MWR and Jannelle. We were happy to have him here and will be happy to continue helping him any way we can.



As for piston recommendations, it'll depend on the turbo. If that is to be upgraded to a GT2871R (direct swap) and a better turbo manifold is to be installed I'd recommend 9:1 pistons for sure. That way you can run as much boost as you want and make some great power. If you're completely sure you're sticking with a GT28RS and 15psi or less then 10.5:1 would work but personally I'd still do 9:1 for safety margin and to make future power increases possible.

Upgrading the valves is a great idea. The MWR and Ferrea valves both work great. To avoid the hassle of the valve job and install plus shimming you can get a head already built and read to install.

[Jannelle]

Originally Posted by monkeywrench

(and the street tune afterward)

That never happened.

Originally Posted by monkeywrench

I believe the engine was still running well and compression was still good so a faulty turbo was suspected.

That is what I thought at the moment I wrote to you. Engine tear down said otherwise. The turbo is completely fine, but cylinder 3 is toasted. Knock made the piston to be non-circular which then scratched the hell out of the cylinder

Originally Posted by monkeywrench

As with ALL of the other pulls that day (and the street tune afterward), NO excessive knock was recorded on that pull.

That is completely impossible, period. I recorded numbers as high as 60-75, only trying to get on the highway at half throttle in 5th gear. "Leaving Commerce Township"

Originally Posted by monkeywrench

The engine had had a tough life.

I think getting a "45" of knock once a week at 3/4 throttle @ 5000 rpm is a lot more gentle on the engine than 20 pulls in 4 hours (probably getting knock every now and then at 6000++ rpm)

Originally Posted by monkeywrench

There would be absolutely no benefit in spending more time than that in this case

What about tuning the entire map? Or maybe a little street tuning? The car never left the place.

Originally Posted by monkeywrench

And the road test to be sure it drove smoothly and safely in real world conditions was done at no charge.

Really?


Anyways, parts came in today. Thank you MWR for the fast shipping process.
No hard feelings, nice doing business with you.

Originally Posted by monkeywrench

Boost (non-adjustable) was a bit higher than I recommend for a stock 2zz engine and I told the customer that.

Just saw your sig. Funny stuff there.... and no you didn't tell me that.

Originally Posted by monkeywrench

2000 Celica GT-S 412whp with MWR turbo @ 16psi and stock engine

[many]

Ouch!

[monkeywrench]

I assure you I took the car out for a street test. You may not have seen me pull it out because we have two driveways, one not visible from the waiting area. I took it twice around my normal 4 mile route. I recorded 45 or lower knock count maximum. I logged it and reviewed the logs before we informed you that the car was done. Street test is done at the end of every tuning session as long as the car is street legal. The customer usually does not ride along.

If you saw knock when leaving our facility it would have been advisable to call us or bring the car back. We could have diagnosed the problem (boost control, fueling, whatever) on the spot. Regardless, I'm glad that you made it home ok on that long drive.

>2000 Celica GT-S 412whp with MWR turbo @ 16psi and stock engine

LOL I did a thread on that, take a look. I made it very clear that power and boost level is NOT advisable. I'll push the limits with our shop R&D car because I have spare engines. I always recommend 7-8psi max to everyone for stock 2zz boost levels.

Jannelle- once you get it back together if you do not have opportunity to bring it by for a retune I'll be happy to look at a couple of logs and revise the tune by email at no charge if you have any concerns with it. A retune here or elsewhere would be a very good idea if you plan to turn the boost up to take advantage of the new built engine plus I assume it'll run a bit different with the new manifold. We obviously could not do any tuning at higher boost levels while it was here last time.

[Jannelle]

Hey guys,

Parts came in last week, now I need to find a shop to install the sleeves and pistons. I found two for now, one asking 800$ for the sleeves and 400$ for the pistons + 50$ cleaning the block + 40$ installing the pistons on the rods.
I am still waiting for an answer from the second shop as they all are on vacation at this time of the year...

What do you think about the price quote? I wasn't expecting that much...

Thanks
Max

[Jannelle]

Anyone?

[jr_castillo847]

Sounds about right to me

[Illusive]

Originally Posted by Jannelle

Hey guys,

Parts came in last week, now I need to find a shop to install the sleeves and pistons. I found two for now, one asking 800$ for the sleeves and 400$ for the pistons + 50$ cleaning the block + 40$ installing the pistons on the rods.
I am still waiting for an answer from the second shop as they all are on vacation at this time of the year...

What do you think about the price quote? I wasn't expecting that much...

Thanks
Max

Do not trust anyone but darton to install sleeves.

You will regret it down the road when your sleeves drop, crack or they destroy your block/bores trying to machine out the MMC liners.

[many]

Originally Posted by Illusive

Do not trust anyone but darton to install sleeves.

You will regret it down the road when your sleeves drop, crack or they destroy your block/bores trying to machine out the MMC liners.

That's about the same thing I have been preaching !

[Boosted2.0]

Originally Posted by many

That's about the same thing I have been preaching !

We agree on most things. Theres probably a reason for that

[clayrush]

Originally Posted by monkeywrench

I always recommend 7-8psi max to everyone for stock 2zz boost levels.

Hey you guys said 10psi from the greddy supercharger would be fine on stock motor

I just want to say there has been a few little problems with parts and preloaded maps on my PFC. But monkeywrench has helped very quickly on every issue i have had. (thanks fore sending out my replacement fuel injector so quickly)

It would suck very much if i did not get to hang out in the shop where my car was being tuned. It's a great experience for me to be able to see every part of the process.