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Old 06-10-2008, 04:00 PM   #1
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How to make good NA (Naturally Aspirated) Power on your Celica

Not that this will stop the seemingly endless stream of questions regarding how to build a NA (Naturally Aspirated) 7th Gen, but here you are - this is the recipie and order that makes sense. Feel free to ask logical questions and make any relevant suggestions

If you have a GT, buy a GTS or swap in a 2ZZ. It will make more power stock than your GT will with $8K in mods

OK - now that we have that established - here is the rest of the formula. The dollar amount represents a rough estimate of the total amount you will have to sink into the car to get to that point.

Daily Driver $50 - $3500
Step 1 - Injen CAI (AEM or E-bay w/ Blue bomber mod if you don't intend to continue to step 5 and beyond.)
Step 2- Exhaust - Magnaflow - RSR, something free flowing. TRD is not free flowing.
Step 3 - DD Performance Research Intake manifold with Q45 Throttle Body
Step 4 - Ceramic coated PPE race header with NO cat.
If you can't afford PPE then Ceramic coated ported stock header with decat
Step 5 - Lightweight flywheel


Weekend Warrior $3500 - $5500
Step 6 - Power FC w/ higher rev limit
Step 7 - Cams - piper stage 3s.
Ferrea or MWR valves and springs
Circuitworx oil pump gear
Underdrive pulley on alternator

Entry level race spec $5500- $9500
Step 8 - Ported & polished head
Bored out throttle body port matched to intake manifold
DD performance Research short runner Intake manifold port matched to head
Header port matched to head
Mahle 12.3:1 pistons
Polydyn or Swain ceramic coating on underside of head and valves & top of piston
Polydyn oil dispersant on crank and rods
A/C delete
Underdrive on water pump
Injectors
Fuel Pump
MWR bearings
Head and block studs
Crower rods (lighter than stock)

Serious Race spec $9500 - $16,500
Step 8 - Custom Race spec Intake manifold (ITBs optional)
Carillo rods
lightened crank
13.0:1 or higher CR wiseco pistons
Darton / MWR sleeved block
Custom CAI / air delivery system

Pro race / Baller
Step 9 - MWR Dry Sump
Lighweight clutch disc and pressure plate
Electric Power Steering conversion
Custom Electric water pump
Titanium Valves, retainers & keepers
Titanium Rods
Custom race header with Burns collector and straight through titanium exhaust or open non merge header
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Old 06-10-2008, 04:36 PM   #2
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would you know how much roughly hp would be if you did all the way to step 6?
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Old 06-10-2008, 06:42 PM   #3
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The Ebay CAI/Boosted2.0 Ported Header/Ebay Exhaust (with or without resonator) will all cost under $800 versus going with the more brand name oriented setup that grows to just about $2,000.



Where would the street manifold you're making go? Stage 2?

Nice thread!!! But here's the big question...will we be able to hit 200 whp at stage 2 instead of stage 6?
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Old 06-10-2008, 07:23 PM   #4
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Is there a known possible destroke for the 2zz?

and something to note... removing the A/C from the car just removes weight. It's not really a hp stealer unless your compressor is seized. the pully will freewheel as if it were a second idler pulley unless you have the A/C activated and the clutch engaged. Also, Even if it were activated with the A/C on max, It would deactivate on WOT.
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power is like a drug......and I can't afford drugs because of this stupid car......Just say NO

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Old 06-10-2008, 08:23 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Entranced View Post
Is there a known possible destroke for the 2zz?
why would you want to destroke the motor?? There is a balance you need to keep...Keep in mind you're moving a car...you need some torque, believe it or not

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Old 06-10-2008, 08:56 PM   #6
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All that with the stock clutch!!?? lol! Not that it can't handle N/A power but it grabs so softly ..
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Old 06-11-2008, 12:35 AM   #7
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now how much of this will be pointless if you decide to go turbo or s/c?
that's what i'd like to know (which stuff on the list i can go with that i can still use on the turbo)

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Old 06-11-2008, 04:33 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boosted2.0 View Post
Step 2- Exhaust - Magnaflow - RSR, something free flowing. TRD is not free flowing.
Care to explain a little bit? I thought TRD was a decent exhaust?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boosted2.0 View Post
Actually it means a large gain in Horsepower. Backpressure = loss of power. It is not good or helpful in any way.
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Let me tell you, I don't know anyone who sees an SRT4 on the road and says, "Wow, I'd like to drive one of those!!!!1!!one!" Instead, they are saying, "Look, another ugly Neon."
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Old 06-11-2008, 08:18 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xxtruchogtsxx View Post
would you know how much roughly hp would be if you did all the way to step 6?
190-200 WHP properly tuned
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTsRasta View Post
The Ebay CAI/Boosted2.0 Ported Header/Ebay Exhaust (with or without resonator) will all cost under $800 versus going with the more brand name oriented setup that grows to just about $2,000.

Where would the street manifold you're making go? Stage 2?

Nice thread!!! But here's the big question...will we be able to hit 200 whp at stage 2 instead of stage 6?
I am aware of the pricing differences - hence the price spread.

Street manifold isn't on there because it doesn't exist yet. When it does we will see. If it works well enough with the stock ECU will determine its placement.

200 WHP at stage 2? What exactly have you been smoking?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Entranced View Post
and something to note... removing the A/C from the car just removes weight. It's not really a hp stealer unless your compressor is seized. the pully will freewheel as if it were a second idler pulley unless you have the A/C activated and the clutch engaged. Also, Even if it were activated with the A/C on max, It would deactivate on WOT.
Removing the AC dies add power - its been proven on a dyno. You still have to spend energy to spin the pulley on the AC unit even if the A/C is not running. Additionally removing the condenser slightly improves the cooling ability of the radiator.
Quote:
Originally Posted by danGTS View Post
All that with the stock clutch!!?? lol! Not that it can't handle N/A power but it grabs so softly ..
I'm talking about power production ONLY - not drivetrain or suspension or anything. If you want to talk abotu putting it to the ground then yes, uprated clutch, LSD, light wheels, better tires, etc would all be good choices. But this thread is simply about power production.
Quote:
Originally Posted by frostyflax17 View Post
now how much of this will be pointless if you decide to go turbo or s/c?
that's what i'd like to know (which stuff on the list i can go with that i can still use on the turbo)
The ONLY thing that is pointless for turbo is higher compression pistons
Quote:
Originally Posted by FITGT View Post
I thought TRD was a decent exhaust?
It is a decent exhaust at the 160-170 WHP level. Above 170 you really want something less restrictive. It will of course be louder - thats the tradeoff with exhaust. Power = noise. (Noise does not always = power though)
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Old 06-11-2008, 08:33 AM   #10
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So a lighter flywheel DOES add power then?

There was talk recently on a thread about flywheel being useless (in terms of power and speed)
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Old 06-11-2008, 08:34 AM   #11
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Is the decat really a must? How much would the trade-off be if I chose not to decat, with the ported stock header?
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Old 06-11-2008, 08:46 AM   #12
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Quote:
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So a lighter flywheel DOES add power then?

There was talk recently on a thread about flywheel being useless (in terms of power and speed)
Id doesn't ADD power - it takes less away. The flywheel is mass that the engine needs to use energy to accelerate. The more mass the engine needs to move the less power is ultimately available from any given power stroke. Lighter flywheels allow faster acceleration. Same holds true for underdriving or eliminating various accessories.

Quote:
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Is the decat really a must? How much would the trade-off be if I chose not to decat, with the ported stock header?
Nothing is a MUST. Decat is worth 5 HP at I/H/E level. Its worth even more when you add in ECU, cams, head work, etc. Its a flow restriction and flow = power.
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Old 06-11-2008, 10:09 AM   #13
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About how much power does the daily driver set of mods add?
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Old 06-11-2008, 10:52 AM   #14
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About how much power does the daily driver set of mods add?
Like 160-180 to the tire on stock ECU
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Old 06-11-2008, 11:28 AM   #15
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i thought you couldn't use a ppe race header with a turbo?
can you also answer why the ppe header for the 00 won't work with the 03+?
i wanted to get a ppe header for my 00, but it'd be pointless if i traded my celi for a 05 celi.

or is it possible to modify it to work right?
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Old 06-11-2008, 12:10 PM   #16
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Quote:
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i thought you couldn't use a ppe race header with a turbo?
can you also answer why the ppe header for the 00 won't work with the 03+?
i wanted to get a ppe header for my 00, but it'd be pointless if i traded my celi for a 05 celi.

or is it possible to modify it to work right?
Correct - but you can easily take the header off and sell it - high compression pistons are a royal pain in the rear to replace.

The 03+ uses an air injection system - the PPE header is not equipped with the distribution pipe to make that system functional unless you custom order it like Kortik did.
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Old 06-11-2008, 12:36 PM   #17
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so cold air intakes would require the bb mod, is this with or without a cell? and whats the story about short rams, i have a KN short ram and it never gave me a cell. would i be loosing power if i dont do the bb mod?

the power FC would work well with any intake bb mod or not right?
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Old 06-11-2008, 12:45 PM   #18
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so cold air intakes would require the bb mod, is this with or without a cell? and whats the story about short rams, i have a KN short ram and it never gave me a cell. would i be loosing power if i dont do the bb mod?

the power FC would work well with any intake bb mod or not right?
The BB mod sucks for making power, but the larger diameter custom or Injen CAI really require a tuneable ECU to avoid bogging. If you never intend to install a tuneable ecu then the BB mod or AEM are the way to go.

Short rams are what they are. They tend to suck plenty of hot air from the engine bay and a lot of them have issues with proper metering of air due to the MAF's proximity to the bend in the intake. That being said, no, the BB mod will probably not make more power for you unless your fuel trims are really bad at the moment.
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Old 06-11-2008, 01:22 PM   #19
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What would you say is the best performing exhaust that would still let your mom ride in the car with you occasionally? Last I was reading TRD seemed to be the best to get some performance but not be a cop magnet, but does one of the higher flowing exhausts at least damp some sound?

And I'm assuming the decat is only for states with no emissions tests, right?

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Old 06-11-2008, 02:47 PM   #20
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What would you say is the best performing exhaust that would still let your mom ride in the car with you occasionally? Last I was reading TRD seemed to be the best to get some performance but not be a cop magnet, but does one of the higher flowing exhausts at least damp some sound?

And I'm assuming the decat is only for states with no emissions tests, right?
TRD is probably the best for a quiet ride, although Magnaflow is not horrible. RSR and the straight through stuff is all very loud, but this thread is about making power NA. NA power is loud. End of story.

Decat is not legal anywhere except for racing applications. Same thing with the Power FC. The decat is illegal, cheap and makes power. You make the decisions from there - I'm not your conscience, I'm a gearhead.
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Old 06-11-2008, 10:44 PM   #21
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in the sticky maybe add how much each part roughly costs (different price for different brand?) and how much whp they produce (approx of course)?

Would stop people asking how much each produces and for what price.
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Old 06-12-2008, 12:14 AM   #22
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also add a link if there is a before and after dyno available for it???
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Old 06-12-2008, 06:04 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boosted2.0 View Post
Please notice stroker is conspicuously absent. Strokers make sense for turbo or supercharged, but not NA. The rev limitations caused by increasing the rod angle and pistons speeds aren't worth the tradeoff in displacement
This is a good point if your wanting to get peak HP numbers. Although, as you already know, my opinion is ultimatly baised torwards the stroker, but it is for a couple good reasons. Everyone (tuners) has a mind set of what they want out of thier car when they start building. It all is in what the person likes, and desires out of thier celica.

Although the stroker in N/A has its pro's and con's. Some may say the con's outweight the pro's, unless some of the con's don't matter to you much. Like less peak HP, limited rev to a mere 8,300 - 8,500 or so. But I'd LOVE more tourqe, i'd LOVE to not have to wait for lift, or always want to race from a roll. I still get quiet decent max WHP, while i still earn a very nice bump in tourqe. MWR 'qouted' me rougly around 235WHP totally built with PFC and a tune they are willing to help me tweak and somewhere around 200WHP with just the emanage ultimate and stage 2 pipers. I get to keep all the stock fuel system aswell.

I respect a 9k revving 2zz-ge for what it is, but I'd personally rather have a stroker for my daily driver, and a little tourqe in my routine. Each to his oen.

Ultimatly I don't think the stroker should be absent. Its an available mod that may suit some to thier liking, like me.
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Old 06-12-2008, 07:37 AM   #24
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This is a good point if your wanting to get peak HP numbers. Although, as you already know, my opinion is ultimatly baised torwards the stroker, but it is for a couple good reasons. Everyone (tuners) has a mind set of what they want out of thier car when they start building. It all is in what the person likes, and desires out of thier celica.

Although the stroker in N/A has its pro's and con's. Some may say the con's outweight the pro's, unless some of the con's don't matter to you much. Like less peak HP, limited rev to a mere 8,300 - 8,500 or so. But I'd LOVE more tourqe, i'd LOVE to not have to wait for lift, or always want to race from a roll. I still get quiet decent max WHP, while i still earn a very nice bump in tourqe. MWR 'qouted' me rougly around 235WHP totally built with PFC and a tune they are willing to help me tweak and somewhere around 200WHP with just the emanage ultimate and stage 2 pipers. I get to keep all the stock fuel system aswell.

I respect a 9k revving 2zz-ge for what it is, but I'd personally rather have a stroker for my daily driver, and a little tourqe in my routine. Each to his oen.

Ultimatly I don't think the stroker should be absent. Its an available mod that may suit some to thier liking, like me.
Peak power and a wider power band at a higher rev range are what NA performance is all about. For drag or road race these are the things that win races. "Good mid range" is something for daily drivers or large displacement V8s, not 1.8L race engines.

If you want more torque above all else then a sub 2.0L NA build is a very bad place to start.

If you think you are going to make 235 WHP on 12.5:1 compression with a 8500 rev limit, stage 2 pipers, stock intake and a stroker then I have a bad feeling you're cruising for dissapointment.
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Old 06-12-2008, 07:47 AM   #25
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Quote:
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in the sticky maybe add how much each part roughly costs (different price for different brand?) and how much whp they produce (approx of course)?

Would stop people asking how much each produces and for what price.
I'm not going there. This is about what needs to and can be done at certail levels, not exactly how much it costs.
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Old 06-12-2008, 07:56 AM   #26
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Gary @ MWR was meerly telling me that there are more N/A 2zz strokers out there than what meets the eye. They've had a couple on thier dyno's before. I'd tend trust the people that build these strokers on a semi normal basis for some 'basic' WHP estimations.

You give alot of good info Boosted, don't get me wrong. It just amazes me how you and redliner both think that stroking the 2zz is basically thowing the 2zz in the trash. Its only a 500-700 RPM lower limit, and I can't go stage 3's. I'm sure i'll live and I think the extra tourqe is worth it in my opinion.

I'm not going for crazy tourqe, but putting a little touqe into the motor, never hurt i'm sure. I'm not going for pure race. Just a powerfull daily.
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Old 06-12-2008, 04:30 PM   #27
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Entranced View Post
Is there a known possible destroke for the 2zz?
why would you want to destroke the motor?? There is a balance you need to keep...Keep in mind you're moving a car...you need some torque, believe it or not
Keep in mind that this is theoretical, but the 2ZZ like pretty much every street motor is at most square to slightly undersquare, meaning that the bore is less than or equal to the stroke. All extremely high specific output motors, such as motorcycle engines and F1 engines, are massively oversquare. This has a dramatic effect on piston speed at various points in the rotation and basically makes the piston spend much more time at top and bottom dead center. This means essentially that you're keeping a smaller total volume for a greater period of time, which keeps your cylinder pressures up, which means that more of the energy from combustion gets transferred into making power. It also keeps the maximum piston speed down meaning that you can rev the engine higher safely.

The caveat here is that you would want to make the engine as oversquare as possible while keeping the same swept volume. By destroking an engine, you lose power by loss of displacement and any increase in efficiency from piston speed considerations and reduced frictional losses will not equal that displacement loss. The idea is then to rev the engine higher to more than make up power. Same concept as losing power with water injection but then making more than that power back by being able to run more boost. Unfortunately, to make power at higher revs, you now run into head, valve and cam design considerations. You may need to make significant changes there to realize any power gains at a higher rpm.
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Originally Posted by Boosted2.0 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Entranced
and something to note... removing the A/C from the car just removes weight. It's not really a hp stealer unless your compressor is seized. the pully will freewheel as if it were a second idler pulley unless you have the A/C activated and the clutch engaged. Also, Even if it were activated with the A/C on max, It would deactivate on WOT.
Removing the AC dies add power - its been proven on a dyno. You still have to spend energy to spin the pulley on the AC unit even if the A/C is not running. Additionally removing the condenser slightly improves the cooling ability of the radiator
The point of clarification here is the A/C delete falls under the heading "entry level race spec". Removing the A/C pulley from the equation reduces parasitic losses from rotational inertia, the same way that underdrive pulleys do. The power gain from this isn't zero, but it minor. There are several mods in this category that will give very minor increases in power: the A/C delete, the coatings and the underdrive water pump. These are listed in this category because their power gains are minor enough that they're fairly pretty insignificant for a street car (as in your sound system has more of a negative benefit on the speed of your car), which is why you would only bother with them on a race motor. Also, the extra cooling efficiecy of the radiator will only come into play in a race situation where you're running the car at high rpms for extended periods of time.
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Originally Posted by danGTS
All that with the stock clutch!!?? lol! Not that it can't handle N/A power but it grabs so softly ..
I'm talking about power production ONLY - not drivetrain or suspension or anything. If you want to talk abotu putting it to the ground then yes, uprated clutch, LSD, light wheels, better tires, etc would all be good choices.
The stock clutch will technically fairly easily hold any power you're likely to make on an N/A 2ZZ. What matters much more is what you do with the car. Drag racing takes a very hard toll on drivetrain components. In fact, you may notice that far more transmissions have failed on drag raced N/A cars than have ever failed on F/I cars. For a drag racing application, the stock clutch is bound to fail. In a road racing application, the stock clutch very easily could hold up to the abuse. The engine makes little enough torque at low rpm that you're not likely to over-abuse the clutch unless you're subjecting it to drag launches.
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Originally Posted by AnthyGTS
So a lighter flywheel DOES add power then?

There was talk recently on a thread about flywheel being useless (in terms of power and speed)
Id doesn't ADD power - it takes less away. The flywheel is mass that the engine needs to use energy to accelerate. The more mass the engine needs to move the less power is ultimately available from any given power stroke. Lighter flywheels allow faster acceleration. Same holds true for underdriving or eliminating various accessories.
Think of it this way. An engine makes a certain amount of power. Power is lost in various ways before it reaches the ground, such as friction in drivetrain components. Another way power is lost is through rotational inertia. This is fairly easy to control by reducing the inertia of any rotating parts between the engine and the ground. You reduce inertia by reducing mass. The easiest parts to do this on are the accessory pullies on the front of the engine, the flywheel, the wheels and the tires. This makes the car faster. The engine actually isn't making more power, its just putting the power to the ground more efficiently. Dynos like a Dynojet are called "inertia" dynos because they measure horsepower by measuring acceleration. On a Dynojet, you will actually see an increase in reported power by doing these inertia mods. But that increase in reported power didn't come about the same way as say adding a free-flowing exhaust, which actually does increase the amount of power the engine is producing.
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Originally Posted by Boosted2.0 View Post
The BB mod sucks for making power, but the larger diameter custom or Injen CAI really require a tuneable ECU to avoid bogging.
Correct. The BB mod is actually a restriction in the intake. Its only purpose is to prevent check engine lights. For maximum power production, you want a large, free-flowing intake such as the Injen. In reality, the Injen would probably not produce CEL's if not for its marginal MAFS placement. It would be not hard at all to make a CEL-free Injen intake by using better MAFS placement and using some vanes in front of the sensor to keep turbulence down. All this would require is a non-crook to make them and you could pretty much blow away any intake on the market for the Celica, regardless of stock or aftermarket ECU.
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Originally Posted by youngxlos View Post
also add a link if there is a before and after dyno available for it???
Probably beyond the scope of this thread. The real point here is that building an engine is not a mystery. There are a pretty small number of parts really available for the Celica and for the most part, there are pretty clear winners in every category. This thread pretty much says what those are. The one area where we could probably expand is on exhausts. Boosted has touched on it, but the real point is that every Celica exhaust follows the same routing and there are only a couple real variables.
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Peak power and a wider power band at a higher rev range are what NA performance is all about. For drag or road race these are the things that win races. "Good mid range" is something for daily drivers or large displacement V8s, not 1.8L race engines.
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You give alot of good info Boosted, don't get me wrong. It just amazes me how you and redliner both think that stroking the 2zz is basically thowing the 2zz in the trash.
All he's really said is that a stroker does not make a good racemotor. For 99% of the people on this board, who want better power in all situations and greater engine longevity by not revving as high, then by all means a stroker is the way to go. If you're after peak power numbers or a narrow powerband like you would use on a race motor, then the standard stroke is the way to go.
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Old 06-13-2008, 02:06 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Jesse IL View Post
For maximum power production, you want a large, free-flowing intake such as the Injen. In reality, the Injen would probably not produce CEL's if not for its marginal MAFS placement. It would be not hard at all to make a CEL-free Injen intake by using better MAFS placement and using some vanes in front of the sensor to keep turbulence down. All this would require is a non-crook to make them and you could pretty much blow away any intake on the market for the Celica, regardless of stock or aftermarket ECU.
you know ive always thought the powerhouse intake looked best, the bends are smoother and the maf seems to be placed better, any thoughts?


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Old 06-13-2008, 05:03 AM   #29
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Its true that the Powerhouse intake has smoother bends, but the Injen, were it properly designed, should yield better real world results. The main reason is that it has a very long section of straight pipe. The MAFS will read the best if it has a good section of straight pipe before and after it. Injen for some stupid reason placed the MAFS in the middle of a bend, which is what screws up everything so badly. The MAFS should be placed dead center in the straight section of the pipe, preceeded by vanes to eliminate turbulence. My upper intercooler pipe is for the most part designed this way (shop didn't completely follow where I told them to place the MAFS boss):





Notice the similarity to the Injen intake?

The other completely overlooked design benefit of the Injen intake is the fact that it bends up where the filter attaches. This does a few things:

1. Locates the filter up in a dead air space behind the bumper. It is better to draw air from a dead air space then it is to try and draw air from a turbulent air stream like the AEM.
2. The location of the filter also keeps it cleaner for a longer period of time than the AEM, which locates the filter right where it can get sprayed with road grime and such.
3. The Injen filter is located several inches higher than the AEM, making the intake much less prone to hydrolock.
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Old 06-13-2008, 09:36 AM   #30
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Gary @ MWR was meerly telling me that there are more N/A 2zz strokers out there than what meets the eye. They've had a couple on thier dyno's before. I'd tend trust the people that build these strokers on a semi normal basis for some 'basic' WHP estimations.

You give alot of good info Boosted, don't get me wrong. It just amazes me how you and redliner both think that stroking the 2zz is basically thowing the 2zz in the trash. Its only a 500-700 RPM lower limit, and I can't go stage 3's. I'm sure i'll live and I think the extra tourqe is worth it in my opinion.

I'm not going for crazy tourqe, but putting a little touqe into the motor, never hurt i'm sure. I'm not going for pure race. Just a powerfull daily.
Its not just about what you can make on a dyno today, but keeping the motor together in a race / high performance applications. I will break it down for you.

A stroker is called a stroker because it increases the stroke, or distance a piston travels in order to increase effective displacement. This is done by making the crank throw, or distance between the crank pin centerline and rod pin centerline longer which in turn causes the rod to move farther up and down... and also side to side.

If you start looking into high power to displacement ratio NA motors and you will find a few common things. Namely short stroke and high revs. There is a very good reason for this which Jesse touched on. It comes down to 2 factors - rod angle and pistons speeds. Forgive my MS paint wizardy - but here is a graphical example of the 2 concepts:



Looking at the top graphic you can see the difference in rod angles. The reason this happens is the longer crank throw I mentioned. The issue with this is side load on the rod and bearings. The more the rod moves side to side the more vibration you have, and also the more load on the bearings. the smaller the stroke is the smaller the range the bearings operate in gets, and the speed at which they move decreases.

Looking at the bottom graphic you see the the difference in distance travelled by the piston in a given revolution. Obviously the longer stroke means the piston has farther to travel. What you may not realize is how much of a difference this makes to how fast the piston has to move. The stock 2ZZ geometry is a 3.23" bore and a 3.35" stroke. The stroker kit increases that stroke to 3.6". Ok - now lets think about 8500 RPM. For each revolution the piston moves up and down its full stroke one time. So the stock 2ZZ moves 6.7" and the stroker moves 7.2". Now do that 8500 times in a minute. You are looking at piston speeds of 79 FPS normal versus 85 FPS stroker and total distance traveled of 53.9 miles in an hour stock and 57.9 miles in an hour stroker. You have to spin a non stroker to 9134 RPM to reach those pistons speeds and even so its way easier on the engine because the rod angle is so much lower. So no matter what speed you are running at the non stroked engine is not working nearly as hard as the stroker is at the same speed. The faster you move a piston the higher the inertial load and friction losses become. Also the higher the wear gets. This is why I don't reccomend a stroker for a NA race engine thats going to see abuse.

Another reason is useable power band. Cammed and built right an NA 2ZZ can make GOOD power from probably 5000 - 9500 RPM. When you are road racing or in autocross the ability to stretch a gear from time to time is huge due to the advantages of gear multiplication.
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Old 06-21-2008, 11:20 AM   #31
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Although the stroker in N/A has its pro's and con's. Some may say the con's outweight the pro's, unless some of the con's don't matter to you much. Like less peak HP, limited rev to a mere 8,300 - 8,500 or so. But I'd LOVE more tourqe, i'd LOVE to not have to wait for lift, or always want to race from a roll. I still get quiet decent max WHP, while i still earn a very nice bump in tourqe. MWR 'qouted' me rougly around 235WHP totally built with PFC and a tune they are willing to help me tweak and somewhere around 200WHP with just the emanage ultimate and stage 2 pipers. I get to keep all the stock fuel system aswell.
C'mon man, seriously, for the purpose of daily driving the 2zz isn't that bad anyway to begin with. It's far from great, but with stage3 pipes a ppe header, pfc tune and higher compression pistons, you're going to make ample torque to make the power on the low cam so much better and yet when you hit the high lift cam, you'll be flying nicely down the road. I'm so glad I didn't stroke mine, eventhough the e-cred would be high...I know jesse might not agree to this but each to their own and im sure the midrange given from those bolt ons would be more than enough 'torque' for my short daily journeys.

This is a nice thread that tlee05 hasn't discovered yet, yay!!!

Boosted, that was a great explanation to the stroker issue
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Old 06-21-2008, 11:56 AM   #32
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Jesse, I have a quick question:

You mentioned that the BB mod is a restriction, and should be deleted, but also suggested that maintaining the turbulence-reducing vanes before the MAF sensor would be desirable (and indeed, it should be)... this advice is a little bit contradictory...

Do you mean that the stock plastic vanes (i.e., BB mod) are unnecessarily large and that much narrower vanes would work just as well to reduce turbulence, while minimizing airflow restriction?
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Old 06-21-2008, 04:33 PM   #33
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Yep - you should use thinner vanes and a larger diameter pipe than the stock one. That is of course presuming you have a non-stock ECU.

Remember- the BB mod is a bandage to make cars with aftermarket CAIs run right on the stock ECU, NOT a power increasing mod.
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Old 06-21-2008, 07:30 PM   #34
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Yep - you should use thinner vanes and a larger diameter pipe than the stock one. That is of course presuming you have a non-stock ECU.

Remember- the BB mod is a bandage to make cars with aftermarket CAIs run right on the stock ECU, NOT a power increasing mod.
Hmm. I hadn't messed with it as I didn't want to have to recalibrate my MAF at low load, but maybe I'll experiment with this.

Thanks, Boosted
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Old 07-09-2008, 04:09 PM   #35
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how light of a flywheel would you get before you compromise comfortable driving?
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Old 07-09-2008, 04:32 PM   #36
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8~10lb is comfortable IMO
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Old 07-09-2008, 06:47 PM   #37
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Ok now i have a question and i know those that have a turbo system can answer this for me. I dont know jack about turbo's or S/C's. My motor is bone stock and was going to do the DD set up maybe up to step 6 for the time being until i can afford another motor to fully mod. the question is can i do a turbo set up on stock internals? The engine has about 112k on it. what would i need to do to be able to run turbo on a stock motor safely without seriously damaging the motor? Also what brand of lightweight flywheel or does that mater and what stage clutch to go with the flywheel. Im about do for a new clutch so ill do both at the same time.

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Old 07-17-2008, 12:02 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by trdmsprts27 View Post
Ok now i have a question and i know those that have a turbo system can answer this for me. I dont know jack about turbo's or S/C's. My motor is bone stock and was going to do the DD set up maybe up to step 6 for the time being until i can afford another motor to fully mod. the question is can i do a turbo set up on stock internals? The engine has about 112k on it. what would i need to do to be able to run turbo on a stock motor safely without seriously damaging the motor? Also what brand of lightweight flywheel or does that mater and what stage clutch to go with the flywheel. Im about do for a new clutch so ill do both at the same time.
read the turbo FAQ in the forced induction section.
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Old 07-25-2008, 02:04 PM   #39
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hey

what intake work good in a celica gt ? Ingen or AEM
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Old 07-25-2008, 05:00 PM   #40
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what intake work good in a celica gt ? Ingen or AEM
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Originally Posted by Boosted2.0 View Post
If you have a GT, buy a GTS or swap in a 2ZZ. It will make more power stock than your GT will with $8K in mods
I don't think this is the right thread to post that question buddy .. Go post in the performance section. Better yet, do some search before, this kind of topic is beaten to death!!
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Old 07-25-2008, 07:57 PM   #41
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Yep, 2zz all the way.
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Old 07-25-2008, 09:48 PM   #42
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Humer me, If I was determined to keep the 1zz about how much would I hav e to the wheels at stage 6? Something like 150-155whp?
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Old 07-26-2008, 01:28 AM   #43
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Humer me, If I was determined to keep the 1zz about how much would I hav e to the wheels at stage 6? Something like 150-155whp?
I don't know the 1zz well enough. I'll let others tell you. But, it seems like a waste to me. I would not hesitate to go with a turbo if I had a GT ...Especially with the price on "turbo-kits" systems those days .. Otherwise, a swap to 2zz is a good investment.

With the GT-S, it's a good start N/A and it's the opposite. I don't want to detune it (like lower compression, the whole concept of VVT tuning with two profiles cams ..) to then get higher numbers turboed. But one could argue the 2zz has beefier rods which makes it interesting ..
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Old 07-26-2008, 10:19 PM   #44
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i blew a piston rod last night after reading this tread i guess a stroker kit is outta of the question. therefor if i want more N/A power playing with ur head seems be the way to go. but since my bottom end has to get fixed is there any type of mod i should take into consideraton?

danGTS, what place would you recomend me to fix my block seeing as ur in mtl?
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Old 07-27-2008, 08:45 AM   #45
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^^^ defo, stick to headwork and stick in a ppe manifold.....block work for N.A is far too OTT.
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Old 07-27-2008, 11:32 PM   #46
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danGTS, what place would you recomend me to fix my block seeing as ur in mtl?
I just noticed you are from Montreal! Me and "Many" both ordered blocks (2) from USA (see the link I posted in your other thread). We had it shipped at the border and pick it up there. We did not machine the blocks. We did the work on our own including building the head, assemble everything and putting it in the car. Are you planning on doing part of the work or just bring the car to a shop and let them do the work? Me or Many might be able to give you a bit of help depending on how busy we are ..

If you want head porting while at it, I can refer you someone. He is not cheap though! I can't really put a number yet on his work but the car goes well .. He might do other engine work, I dunno ..
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Old 07-28-2008, 03:52 PM   #47
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are you guys mechanics or just enthusiasts? cause id like to do the work my self but being with out a car is ruff!

i may have a temp solution for now. just need to find out if a 2005 matrix xrs motor fits.. at least this way ill have time to work on proper build without being rushed
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Old 07-29-2008, 10:17 AM   #48
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We are more enthusiasts but very specialized in celicas!

This was my first build and engine installation. My previous experiences were not as significant. I like the feeling that I have build my engine and know everything was done properly ..

Many has quite a bit of experience though. It was his first build too but he installed other engines before and has more experience / knowledge in mechanic then I do .. I would not have been able to do it all without him, he helped me a lot ..
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Old 07-30-2008, 06:22 AM   #49
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well its good to know there are some local ppl out there with celi expertise! Dan in you opinion, do you think its worth it for me to reinforce my bottem end. cause you seem to be running pretty good times with what you got! or should i just focus on my head?
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Old 07-30-2008, 07:07 AM   #50
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I ran those times with intake, exhaust and drag radials only a few years ago. I haven't go quarter mile racing for a long while. My build setup has not seen any track yet ..

As for the bottom end, I can't really tell since I never put them. But, I went with what I think is the most important for my goals. Make the bottom end stronger ?? Nah, not for under 275-300 WHP. It's still a good thing to do it while at it though, you might wanna put high boost later on .. And the low weight would help a lil. I decided to stick for 250-260 whp max if I ever boost. i therefore don't need to build the bottom end stronger with all the work that comes with it ... We are three build celicas that hang together here and all of us did not do the bearings and rods. We basically think there is more important for our needs.

As for the pistons, it's a bit different. I hesitated a lot on that one. I decided not to put them since I don't want to open again if I decide to put moderate boost on my car. You can not do it with high compression. But at the same time, it would help the N/A build, so they are a nice addition. If you end up with a N/A setup with pistons that does not satisfy your needs, your screwed. You need to open again. Plus, compression increase is not huge and you need to run 94 gas all the time which can not be found everywhere. Mahle are forged thus stronger too. It's a harder choice .. Many has them ..

I think the best bang for the buck is the head work. I choose the more expensive head porting vs pistons basically.Of course if you want the perfect setup, you'd put high compression with a N/A setup and low compression with boost. It's just my compromise for convenience.
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Best E.T. (built N/A 2zz with a street tune) : 13.56 @ 103.81 mph; Best 1/8 : 8.81
Best E.T. (i/e/DR only) : 13.96 @ 102.1 mph; Best 1/8 : 8.95
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