Race Header RESULTS - DYNO INSIDE

[Redliner9k]

First of all, thanks to all of you for your patience and understanding. To those that did see the preliminary results I thank you for your kind words and advice. This has been a very long journey. This whole project started up more than 2 years ago and it's now that we have the final results to show you guys. Thanks for all the support.

On to the good stuff. Am gonna give a brief description of the mods on the car and a detailed description of the runs.

2005 Corolla XRS
Injen CAI
P&P Stock Header/Race Header
Full 2.5" Mandrel Exhaust Decat/No Resonator
Bored 68mm TB
Hondata IM Gasket

Note: The 2zz-ge in the Corolla comes detuned to a stock whp rating of around 148-151whp.

-The only thing changed between the runs was the P&P header and the Race Header.
-Both runs where not done in the same day due to time constraints and money issues.
-Both runs where made with the Stock ECU.
-No sort of tuning whatsoever was done.
-Both runs where done in the same dyno and both are SAE corrected.

The Dyno:




As you can see, the race header really comes alive at 4800rpm. You can definatly feel the sudden surge in power from that point on, I even call it a mini Lift, heh. Gains are all over the powerband and where the 2zz needs it the most, the midrange.

Well, there you have it guys! Any questions, opinions, and the sort feel free to post them up and I'll answer the best way I can. There is no price for this header just yet, when I get a quote I'll let you guys know.

[TRlPPlN]

any vids? looks very good. good job man. im too broke to afford another race header..lol. although ill still have my faith on my WR header.

[Redliner9k]

Note this is a prototype, so it won't win any beauty contests.

Pics:






Dyno Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOGlPBhY8nY

[TRlPPlN]

nice vid. G/L with production man. the numbers do speak for themselves and thats good enough.

[kortik]

thank you

[celicajonz]

niiice...

[Archer2KGTS]

Sign me up... I want one NOW lol. Seriously though. When can I get one...

[sleepy_celi]

holy shet, i want one too XD finally

[Boosted2.0]

Lookin great!

FWIW the P&P on that header was not done by me so the gains in this dyno might be a teeny bit more than you would see versus one of mine, but its impossible to say how much without testing and pics of the P&P header tested. Either way the car had no cat in both dynos and I think the gains are awsome. Its just ricer math, but if you consider my P&P header + decat = 6 to 10 WHP over stock this thing is possibly 10 to 14 over stock.

The falloff up top is probably head, cam and tuning - I'd like to see this thing dynoed up to 9K on a car with power FC!

also I think they still had a muffler of some kind on that car - so maybe even an extra 1 or 2 HP to be gained there as well.


Its a pretty elaborate design though, so hopefully the cost of production isn't too high.

[Celicasaur]

interesting. if i didnt have a boosted header and de-cat already i'd look into this header. but for the cost is going to be (i know it wont be cheap! esp to ship to the uk!!!) i dont think the few hp will be worth it for me personally.

GOOD WORK THOUGH AND WELL DONE! :d

[Redliner9k]

Thanks all.

Do note there's ALOT of potential left in this header with some proper tuning! This were done with the stock ECU and the A/F were far from optimized. I'll be posting the A/F's later tonight for your comparison.

[elcelicagts]

how much would something like that go for? there has to be a ball park figure as to how much it would cost right? would it be more than the 500 the wr race header cost's?

[03gts6speed]

awesome. a good looking prospect.

[Celicasaur]

i recko it'll be around that figure...

[many]

Great numbers !!
Any pics from beneath the car?

[Redliner9k]

Originally Posted by elcelicagts

how much would something like that go for? there has to be a ball park figure as to how much it would cost right? would it be more than the 500 the wr race header cost's?

Price is unknown. Simply because this was a one off fabrication, the cost of materials I had to buy from different companies in order to make it happen skyrocketed the fabrication price. If I could find a fabricator that can do all the work and a decent price I'd be all over it. My wish is for the final price to be around the vicinity of the WR header, maybe a little bit higher. Until I do find that fabricator, price is unknown and there's no ETA on production runs.

Sorry guys.

[Sylver1]

Will we get to see a dyno done on a celica? I would like to see what it does with the higher power band of the celica.
Nice dyno BTW.

[RedBlur2000GTS]

whats up with boricuas knowing how to pull horsepower out of there ass man. Great job, i'm from aguas buenas btw.

[jlitman]

Wow -- make this fit a Celica and I WILL buy one!

Do you have a sound clip? I recall that your header was ingeniously designed to work like an open header, but not sound like one.

[Redliner9k]

Originally Posted by jlitman

Wow -- make this fit a Celica and I WILL buy one!

Do you have a sound clip? I recall that your header was ingeniously designed to work like an open header, but not sound like one.

I posted a video in the first page, underneath the pics.

As for fitting a Celica, am sure it already does. The exhaust manifold in all this car is the same to my knowledge and the header was fabricated to follow the stock routing.

[Redliner9k]

This is the A/F readng from the dyno. You can notice there alot to be still gained from just A/F tuning.

[Redliner9k]

Since reading the dyno might be challenging to some of you I have broken down the dyno in 500rpm segments to illustrate to you guys the gains on the RH.

[youngxlos]

not to bash but this header pretty much didnt have much top end ether. i know there is no tuning, but lets hope it pulls more than 2whp up top with a power fc.
good job ether way i wish i had the time to make my own header. if you can show me more than 2whp gains on top end ill be in.

[Archer2KGTS]

Need a test bed for fitting and on a GT-S /w PowerFC? *wink* *wink*

[Redliner9k]

Originally Posted by youngxlos

not to bash but this header pretty much didnt have much top end ether. i know there is no tuning, but lets hope it pulls more than 2whp up top with a power fc.
good job ether way i wish i had the time to make my own header. if you can show me more than 2whp gains on top end ill be in.

Re-analyze the plot. My header peaks way before the P&P one, hence when the P&P stock one peaks am already far beyond where the RH peaked and plateud. Also note this was against a full P&P header on car with already a decat, no resonator and full 2.5"....unlike other tests that don't show gains in the top end when comparing to a stock header with stock cat.....

Archer:
If I had $$$ to build another prototype I would be, but am broke.

[JAVITRD]

well red congrats u finally had done what ur want. and as i told u i will like to see that header on my car...

[Archer2KGTS]

Red... how much did it cost to make? PM me, if it's within my bankroll I may spot you the funds...

[jlitman]

Originally Posted by Archer2KGTS

Red... how much did it cost to make? PM me, if it's within my bankroll I may spot you the funds...

Seriously -- give us a ballpark!

[Redliner9k]

Originally Posted by jlitman

Seriously -- give us a ballpark!

You got PM.

[Redliner9k]

Guys, am currently in contact with a company that came highly recommended and I should be getting a quote of fabrication in the upcoming days. I'll let you guys know how that turns up.

[jlitman]

Originally Posted by Redliner9k

Guys, am currently in contact with a company that came highly recommended and I should be getting a quote of fabrication in the upcoming days. I'll let you guys know how that turns up.

[Redliner9k]

Just wanted to add a small detail. The beauty of this header is that you can actually swap out collectors for whatever your setup is. The whole collector assembly and expansion tank seperate from the primaries so it's easier to install and swap out collector designs.

[jlitman]

Originally Posted by Redliner9k

Just wanted to add a small detail. The beauty of this header is that you can actually swap out collectors for whatever your setup is. The whole collector assembly and expansion tank seperate from the primaries so it's easier to install and swap out collector designs.

Red, I'm just curious -- you mentioned that a stock 2ZZ corolla will put down ~150; does that mean the test car picked up 24 - 29 whp from bolt-ons? Not questioning the validity of the dyno or anything, just wondering what might be the relative contributions of the other mods (e.g., TB) to the final numbers

[Redliner9k]

Originally Posted by jlitman

Red, I'm just curious -- you mentioned that a stock 2ZZ corolla will put down ~150; does that mean the test car picked up 24 - 29 whp from bolt-ons? Not questioning the validity of the dyno or anything, just wondering what might be the relative contributions of the other mods (e.g., TB) to the final numbers

I would be lying if I said yes. The dyno in which we did the total stock baseline reads alot different than the one we currently use. To put it in perspective the dyno in which we dynoed the stock baseline, we went later on with what I think was CAI and 2.5 exhaust, decat, and no resonator and it read 174whp. Those same mods read 161-163whp in the dyno we use now. If I were to go to that dyno right now, am confident that we would dyno around 190whp which would seem incredible, but decieving at the same time.

We used the current dyno #'s since the pre-RH baseline was done in the current dyno we use so doing the RH runs would be the best and most accurate thing to do. Remember we don't own any dyno (I wish), we just go as paying customers and pay the fees to do our runs, so in other words we can't manipulate the results like many companies do that own dynos.

Edit:

To add into perspective, mods like the CAI and TB Bore might help the gains of the RH since it's freeing up the intake side of things, but at the same time making power over a P&P header, decat, no res, and 2.5" is amazing. Remember, if I were to have compared against a total stock system gains of around 15whp/15 lbs. give or take would be seen. Also each time you mod the car it becomes harder and harder to extract power. Once you do the golden '3' mods which are I/H/E things get alot harder and more expensive if you want power beyond that.

Also note, this header is FAR from giving all it's got! We still have to tune quite a bit as per the A/F graph I posted and work on VVT and ignition advance so take this results with a grain of salt. Hell, I even think that the 2.5" connected to the header is holding back some power, so we might just go for 3" like most N/A K20's are doing. Even then I do plan to test this header on a completly stock car (Exhaust side) to see what it does and then maybe tune the car and see the gains which will be INCREDIBLE from what I see.

[jlitman]

Originally Posted by Redliner9k

I would be lying if I said yes. The dyno in which we did the total stock baseline reads alot different than the one we currently use. To put it in perspective the dyno in which we dynoed the stock baseline, we went later on with what I think was CAI and 2.5 exhaust, decat, and no resonator and it read 174whp. Those same mods read 161-163whp in the dyno we use now. If I were to go to that dyno right now, am confident that we would dyno around 190whp which would seem incredible, but decieving at the same time.

We used the current dyno #'s since the pre-RH baseline was done in the current dyno we use so doing the RH runs would be the best and most accurate thing to do. Remember we don't own any dyno (I wish), we just go as paying customers and pay the fees to do our runs, so in other words we can't manipulate the results like many companies do that own dynos.

Edit:

To add into perspective, mods like the CAI and TB Bore might help the gains of the RH since it's freeing up the intake side of things, but at the same time making power over a P&P header, decat, no res, and 2.5" is amazing. Remember, if I were to have compared against a total stock system gains of around 15whp/15 lbs. give or take would be seen. Also each time you mod the car it becomes harder and harder to extract power. Once you do the golden '3' mods which are I/H/E things get alot harder and more expensive if you want power beyond that.

Also note, this header is FAR from giving all it's got! We still have to tune quite a bit as per the A/F graph I posted and work on VVT and ignition advance so take this results with a grain of salt. Hell, I even think that the 2.5" connected to the header is holding back some power, so we might just go for 3" like most N/A K20's are doing. Even then I do plan to test this header on a completly stock car (Exhaust side) to see what it does and then maybe tune the car and see the gains which will be INCREDIBLE from what I see.

Understood -- again I wasn't questioning the final conclusion evident in the dyno: That the RH provides gains over and above a P&P header -- that is very clear and very impressive -- nor was I questioning it's legitimacy in any way.

I'm just thinking in terms of % gain -- the dyno clearly shows an improvement of ranging from about 9.5% in the midrange to about 2.5% on top over a P&P header, but it would be interesting to see the % improvement one could expect going from a bone stock header (with or without cat) on a GT-S to this. I also think it will be very informative to see a dyno of your race header on a 2ZZ with the stock TB.

[Redliner9k]

Originally Posted by jlitman

Understood -- again I wasn't questioning the final conclusion evident in the dyno: That the RH provides gains over and above a P&P header -- that is very clear and very impressive -- nor was I questioning it's legitimacy in any way.

I'm just thinking in terms of % gain -- the dyno clearly shows an improvement of ranging from about 9.5% in the midrange to about 2.5% on top over a P&P header, but it would be interesting to see the % improvement one could expect going from a bone stock header (with or without cat) on a GT-S to this. I also think it will be very informative to see a dyno of your race header on a 2ZZ with the stock TB.

Totally with you! My plans do call for some test runs on a stock TB and stock header with cat and then with the RH to see how it goes. IMO gains will be even bigger with a setup like this, but for the sake of data I will do it because I want to see how much better the RH is than the stock untouched unit and have more comparisons to go from.

Sidenote for Everyone:

About the top end gains, I'm still wondering why the gains stop so soon. Alot of people tend to just look at 8000rpm, but ignore the point that the RH peaks alot sooner than the P&P header. The RH peaks @ 7400rpm vs. P&P header which peaks @ 7950rpm. The RH pretty much plateus from where it peaks to 8000rpm and then drops, as where the P&P peaks and drops immediatly. To put it in perspective, at 7400rpm (RH's peak) it's producing 7-8whp more than the P&P header and plateus instead of dropping quickly like the P&P header. IMO the top end gains are there, there just not impressive in a dyno if your simply looking at peak #'s and not analyzing the plot.

I do want to make the gains keep increasing instead of the current results. In order to achieve this I plan to implement something to the collector megaphone in order to extend the powerband a bit more from where it currently is. The midrange gains will be the same or even better, but this will help extend where the powerband stops by a few hundred rpm and greatly improve top end gains.

More to come!

[sleepy_celi]

sounds good, take your time, im pretty sure people won't mind once they install one of these things

[klutch]

good gains red

i'd buy this after i tired of my new bike =D

[Redliner9k]

Heh, thanks guys.

We will be tuning early next week guys so stay tuned for the dyno plots and analysis.

[GTsRasta]

Keep up the good work guys, and see bout moving the peak hp over into the higher RPMs somehow. Great design nonetheless!

[Redliner9k]

Originally Posted by GTsRasta

Keep up the good work guys, and see bout moving the peak hp over into the higher RPMs somehow. Great design nonetheless!

I'll try my best to do just that. If tuning is not the solution, then I will just have to build another prototype with the fix

[TRlPPlN]

Originally Posted by Redliner9k

I'll try my best to do just that. If tuning is not the solution, then I will just have to build another prototype with the fix

damn maybe a race header thatll just replace the bpipe all the way to the axleback.

[Redliner9k]

Originally Posted by TRlPPlN

damn maybe a race header thatll just replace the bpipe all the way to the axleback.

Heh, need to get a pic under the car so you see how long this header really is.

[sleepy_celi]

Originally Posted by Redliner9k

I'll try my best to do just that. If tuning is not the solution, then I will just have to build another prototype with the fix

marry me.





hahah j/k.............................................its illegal.


haahah i hope no one thinks im

[fraugts]

Originally Posted by sleepy_celi

marry me.


hahah j/k.............................................its illegal.


haahah i hope no one thinks im

yep, everybody is thinking just that...

[sleepy_celi]

Originally Posted by fraugts

yep, everybody is thinking just that...

NOOOOOOOOOOO!






meh

[nikos]

Hey red when will you released the header,count me in also for buying.Pm me for details

[killer2239]

Been trying to keep up with everyones post about the top end power. I think alot of it has to come with our head flow. Our head flow is not as great top end when comparing it to the type-r honda heads. I know there is a flow chart somewhere, of the 2zz and b18c5, our head has better flow low end, then the b18 has more. I think with more aggressive cams, and head work the race headers would shine at 8000-8500rpm. Our motors peak power is like 7600-7800 correct? Our heads and cams are the reason primarily. If we fix that, i think the race header would show more improvement as boosted2.0 said earlier.

[Boosted2.0]

Originally Posted by killer2239

Been trying to keep up with everyones post about the top end power. I think alot of it has to come with our head flow. Our head flow is not as great top end when comparing it to the type-r honda heads. I know there is a flow chart somewhere, of the 2zz and b18c5, our head has better flow low end, then the b18 has more. I think with more aggressive cams, and head work the race headers would shine at 8000-8500rpm. Our motors peak power is like 7600-7800 correct? Our heads and cams are the reason primarily. If we fix that, i think the race header would show more improvement as boosted2.0 said earlier.

I have seen the head flow to over 9K RPM with a race header - there was just a dead spot from 8K to 8.5K.

The head is fine - it can be made better, but thats not the main limiting factor

[lVlemphizStylez]

everyone is looking at just the top end gains...The low end and mid range gain on that thing is VERY nice...WAY more area under that curve now...Which will make a faster car..Id take the header that gave a gain over the rpm range like that over one that gave me 8whp on the top end alone...