2zz WR Race Header Results

killer2239 · 03-10-2007, 12:40 PM

Beware!!! Im not happy. Not happy at all, well maybe a bit with midrange. The header loose power from approx 7500rpm to redline. And whats sad, is our cams are designed to peak power around 7600-7800rpm, so im now limited on peak power up top.

I did not have time to tune 3500rpm to 5000rpm, but i know i have some power to gain in those areas still. Just no money to go back. Lift is at 5100rpm. However the header does give great gains between 4000-7000rpm. Just after that it goes downhill.

Am i happy or mad? I have to say im mad, i did gain midrange, but i lost the power where it matters the most in a race. Will i try to get a new header in the future? Hell yeah, whenever i get more money i will.

WRLeo - This is no offense to you personally, but for a race header, this header sucks. And i personally dont recommend it to anyone on stock ecu, if they have standalone i would advise people that its a midrange header, not a top end power gainer. I would prefer a header with power gains from 5000 to redline, not start falling short after 7500rpm and causing more power loss than stock header.

I honestly feel i wasted my money with this. Even though i got the great price on it, but the results of midrange are not worth loosing the top end.

If you all redesign the 2zz version header, and want to give it a try for exchanging the headers out for new design, i will be willing to try a new version.

Any questions on something i missed please let me know. Below are dyno results. Sorry they are on MPH instead of RPM on the runs with hydra. They were using injector wire for tach, and hydra screwed with their sensor for reading it.

My 181whp at MWR is now a thing of the past.

Stock ECU vs Hydra tuned

Hydra tuned vs Hydra tuned before header

Stock ECU before header and after header

Stock ECU - Before and after header again, but in engine rpm since stock ecu

Jesse IL · 03-10-2007, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by killer2239

Hydra tuned vs Hydra tuned before header

Uhm, you made power EVERYWHERE, with major midrange gains. You got EXACTLY what you paid for. You're a fvcking fool if you thought you were getting an 8000 rpm peak power header after all the evidence to the contrary.

I don't see any reason for WR to redesign this header. This header would be great for most street driving and autocrossing. If anything, maybe they should consider offering two headers, this one and one for guys who only care about peak hp numbers.

killer2239 · 03-10-2007, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse IL

Uhm, you made power EVERYWHERE, with major midrange gains. You got EXACTLY what you paid for. You're a fvcking fool if you thought you were getting an 8000 rpm peak power header after all the evidence to the contrary.

I don't see any reason for WR to redesign this header. This header would be great for most street driving and autocrossing. If anything, maybe they should consider offering two headers, this one and one for guys who only care about peak hp numbers.

Im making less power than i was at MWR, i didnt gain any power from stock header past 7000rpm. I mean shouldnt i have more peak power with a race header? Dont get me wrong, im happy with all the midrange gains. But a race header is know for power throughout the entire band, not to loose power anywhere in the power band.

killer2239 · 03-10-2007, 01:11 PM

I guess its not so bad top end if you have something to tune with. But the upper rpms i should be making more power than i was before i had the header installed. But your right, i did gain midrange everywhere out the ass. Im just upset that for a race header, it kinda stumps the peak power.

EDIT:
Guys, maybe i was little to harsh on the header. The midrange gains are extremely nice. But top end is kinda stumped now, which is why im so mad. Just for a race header on a car that is made to rev, id prefer gains from 5000-redline, not 3500 to 7000rpm.

Archer2KGTS · 03-10-2007, 01:27 PM

Nice change to your sig... LOL
Hydra EMS 175whp lift at 5100rpm, was 181whp until WR Race Header

But these results are as expected. We all knew this was a mid range header. I know when you hear race header you think top end. But you know what, horsepower is just like watts in the car audio world. Peak power out is important yes, but your RMS power out is where its at.

Same thing with horsepower/torque. Yeah cool you are putting down 800 RWHP peak in your Supra, too bad with the excessive large turbo you only have 500 RPMs of that power available. You gained a lot in mid-range and mid-range is just as important as peak. A loss of 6whp isn't going to kill you. It can be made up somewhere else with other mods or additional tuning.

:::QUICK EDIT:::
Also, the differences in dynos from MWR to the one where you dynoed this time round as well as changes in conditions could affect your power.

killer2239 · 03-10-2007, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archer2KGTS

Nice change to your sig... LOL
Hydra EMS 175whp lift at 5100rpm, was 181whp until WR Race Header

But these results are as expected. We all knew this was a mid range header. I know when you hear race header you think top end. But you know what, horsepower is just like watts in the car audio world. Peak power out is important yes, but your RMS power out is where its at.

Same thing with horsepower/torque. Yeah cool you are putting down 800 RWHP peak in your Supra, too bad with the excessive large turbo you only have 500 RPMs of that power available. You gained a lot in mid-range and mid-range is just as important as peak. A loss of 6whp isn't going to kill you. It can be made up somewhere else with other mods or additional tuning.

:::QUICK EDIT:::
Also, the differences in dynos from MWR to the one where you dynoed this time round as well as changes in conditions could affect your power.

Yeah, you do have good point there. Im just upset that im loosing peak power, i knew it was going to get great midrange and there was potential of loosing power top end, but i wonder how much peak power we have to gain with a race header designed for 5000+ compared to stock. But even the stock ecu on XRS cant maintain its power in lift. A 05 XRS with I/E makes same power from time lift kicks to redline. It shows that you do loose power past 7500rpm. But it does show the nice gains of midrange. However XRS owners on stock this header hurts them overall, they already have to shift perfect redline to get closest back to lift, and now they wont pull the same to redline and if they try to shift early, they land further out of lift. Its loose loose situation for stock ecu car. Its not to bad for a car with tuner.

youngxlos · 03-10-2007, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse IL

Quote:

Originally Posted by killer2239

Hydra tuned vs Hydra tuned before header

Uhm, you made power EVERYWHERE, with major midrange gains. You got EXACTLY what you paid for. You're a fvcking fool if you thought you were getting an 8000 rpm peak power header after all the evidence to the contrary.

I don't see any reason for WR to redesign this header. This header would be great for most street driving and autocrossing. If anything, maybe they should consider offering two headers, this one and one for guys who only care about peak hp numbers.

like i said before. this header will be debated like a CAI.
why do people like AEM? because of the mid range power.
look at the gains for midrange. are you drag racing everyday? are you at 7k to 9k every time you drive the car? i don't see why you would be mad. i personally love this header because of the way it makes the car drive.

killer2239 · 03-10-2007, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by youngxlos

like i said before. this header will be debated like a CAI.
why do people like AEM? because of the mid range power.
look at the gains for midrange. are you drag racing everyday? are you at 7k to 9k every time you drive the car? i don't see why you would be mad. i personally love this header because of the way it makes the car drive.

I only go past 4500rpm when im tryin to get infront of someone, or racing someone. Other than that i just shift at 3500rpm most times. It does have a real nice midrange though when you get on it a bit to get little more power yes. But when racing someone your end up loosing your advantage of the top end power.

**jlitman** · 03-10-2007, 02:38 PM

I'm a little slow on the uptake -- would you mind editing the thread to explicitly state RED = X and BLACK = Y. I'm not clear on what is going on on in some of these graphs.

Jesse IL · 03-10-2007, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by killer2239

i didnt gain any power from stock header past 7000rpm.

Not according to your dyno.

Also, your sig is idiotic. You're comparing results from two different dynos on two different days.

**jlitman** · 03-10-2007, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse IL

Quote:

Originally Posted by killer2239

i didnt gain any power from stock header past 7000rpm.

Not according to your dyno.

^^^ Exactly. That's why I'd like to see these more clearly labeled. His interpretations are not consistent with what appears to be going on... If I know in graph 1 that red = stock header and black = WR header (or whatever), then it's unambiguous.

elcelicagts · 03-10-2007, 02:45 PM

^ yeah its hard for me to really tell what’s going on with the graphs also. But even to someone as inexperienced as me its obvious that power was made throughout, along with that nice gap in the midrange.

also, Different dyno was used at MWR right? if that’s the case, that would explain a difference in peak WHP right?

killer2239 · 03-10-2007, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse IL

Not according to your dyno.

I mean compared to before the header and after the header with tuning. Dont forget i removed the cat along with install, and i know they say power gains from removing cat is a few whp to. Between header and cat deletion, i did not gain what you would expect from a race header. Yes i know this header is a midrange header, but WR has said it gains power in all rpm range, but i show lower loss past 7500.

killer2239 · 03-10-2007, 02:49 PM

Clark_W29 is the run with WR Race header on stock ecu
Clark_W31 is run with hydra with MWR tune without header
Clark_W45 is the last run with Hydra tuning done
Warner_vett one was last time i went before header install, they messed up when saving it last time i was there.

killer2239 · 03-10-2007, 02:53 PM

Im making 1whp more with hydra on peak power than the stock ecu, and the XRS is Detuned! Yes they are different dynos, but considering i removed cat, have a race header on, it should still make close to 180 to 185whp.

Monkeywrench - Has anyone dynoed with I/E on stock ecu of 05 or 06 XRS there that you can post??

**jlitman** · 03-10-2007, 02:56 PM

Okay, that's considerably clearer.

So (correct me if I'm wrong) without tuning, the WR header always loses a little at the very top, and otherwise shows modest gains throughout the rest of the rev range.

With tuning, it gains throughout the rev range AND at top. That's not bad at all, though it means the header isn't worth it for someone who (1) Is most interested in top end gains and (2) is sticking with the stock ECU only.

But yes -- you can only compare proportion (%) gain and location of gain in the rev range between the two dynos -- they are apples and oranges comparisons in terms of the absoulte values.

elcelicagts · 03-10-2007, 02:57 PM

so would the blue area be like a 5 whp gain??

and the orange area be like a 15-20 whp gain in midrange (4500-5500 rpm)??

killer2239 · 03-10-2007, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlitman

Okay, that's considerably clearer.

So (correct me if I'm wrong) without tuning, the WR header always loses a little at the very top, and otherwise shows modest gains throughout the rest of the rev range.

With tuning, it gains throughout the rev range AND at top. That's not bad at all, though it means the header isn't worth it for someone who (1) Is most interested in top end gains and (2) is sticking with the stock ECU only.

Yeah, thats what iv been trying to say. I know i didnt have the clearest way of saying it. Im not the greatest at explaining things. Someone who is building motor to rev to 9k or something, its not a good choice in header for them. For someone thats autocrossing, time attack or something, its probably great for them. Now that im calming down from everything, and you all are pointing some things out, im happy with it everywhere except past 7500rpm. I feel that its crippling the true peak power the motor can produce and causes more power loss after 7500rpm than stock header with cat.

I dont have the actual files from the dyno place yet to get graph with graph of it, they are going to send them to me, but look at the warner_vett25 and clark_w45. Even with hydra, i cant make more power than stock ecu with cat and stock header past 7500rpm.

elcelicagts · 03-10-2007, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by killer2239

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlitman

Okay, that's considerably clearer.

So (correct me if I'm wrong) without tuning, the WR header always loses a little at the very top, and otherwise shows modest gains throughout the rest of the rev range.

With tuning, it gains throughout the rev range AND at top. That's not bad at all, though it means the header isn't worth it for someone who (1) Is most interested in top end gains and (2) is sticking with the stock ECU only.

Yeah, thats what iv been trying to say. I know i didnt have the clearest way of saying it. Im not the greatest at explaining things. Someone who is building motor to rev to 9k or something, its not a good choice in header for them. For someone thats autocrossing, time attack or something, its probably great for them. Now that im calming down from everything, and you all are pointing some things out, im happy with it everywhere except past 7500rpm. I feel that its crippling the true peak power the motor can produce and causes more power loss after 7500rpm than stock header with cat.

well if thats the case, where it would do that just for some few horses in midrange then it probably isnt all that worth it.

Redliner9k · 03-10-2007, 04:04 PM

Am gonna post my 0.02cents on this matter. Short and straight...

The header IMO is not worth it. Take into account that Killer dynoed on that very same dyno 171whp with a stock header and stock ECU, to now pushing 175whp after a Hydra tune. You can all bitch about how peak #'s dont matte, but the matter of a fact is that Killer is now loosing a whole 1000rpm powerband which is very critical (He has rev limiter at 8500rpm). He drag races and street races.

Now all of you argue about the midrange gains. You do know that having this header won't make your car a better daily driver. Not like your gonna be feeling all those gains at partial throttle. Now, midrange is wonderful if you autocross, time attack, Solo1, etc, but for Killers style of racing it aint. Once he shifts that first gear, he has nothing but something holding him back and not helping. Midrange is a thing of the past and all that helps him now is the top end.

Now taking into account that while installing this header he deleted the cat which various testing have proven to gain 3-5whp alone, then I would say this header is lacking quite a bit. I've said all along, with the length of there primaries and secondaries and the use of that conventional collector if you expect anything else from what's being tested then your living a dream.

My 0.02cents

Mike21 · 03-10-2007, 05:41 PM

how big is your exhaust?

GTsRasta · 03-10-2007, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redliner9k

Am gonna post my 0.02cents on this matter. Short and straight...

The header IMO is not worth it. Take into account that Killer dynoed on that very same dyno 171whp with a stock header and stock ECU, to now pushing 175whp after a Hydra tune. You can all bitch about how peak #'s dont matte, but the matter of a fact is that Killer is now loosing a whole 1000rpm powerband which is very critical (He has rev limiter at 8500rpm). He drag races and street races.

Now all of you argue about the midrange gains. You do know that having this header won't make your car a better daily driver. Not like your gonna be feeling all those gains at partial throttle. Now, midrange is wonderful if you autocross, time attack, Solo1, etc, but for Killers style of racing it aint. Once he shifts that first gear, he has nothing but something holding him back and not helping. Midrange is a thing of the past and all that helps him now is the top end.

Now taking into account that while installing this header he deleted the cat which various testing have proven to gain 3-5whp alone, then I would say this header is lacking quite a bit. I've said all along, with the length of there primaries and secondaries and the use of that conventional collector if you expect anything else from what's being tested then your living a dream.

My 0.02cents

x2. The rare instances I want serious power is when I endulge myself in a race, which is like once a month. Otherwise, I shift at 3,000 rpm for maximum gas milage. Races from digs is where it really matters, moreso than highway rolls IMO. Getting a midrange race header for daily driving or highway passes doesn't seem all that practical, unless you're into autocrossing. I like the rush of power shifting through 1st to 4th gives me. For this header...top end loss doesn't sound all that great. Only the price seems appealing. And even as a midrange power adder for autocross/tracks...our 6 speed trannies were designed to drop and stay in the stock ECU's lift period from 8,400 rpm tp 6,000+ rpm. If half the RPM usage in lift doesn't give substantial gains like the midrange, then it's an achilles heel. And this is for both twisties, and going in a strait line.

As far as AEM vs Injen goes...yes...the AEM seems to pwn the Injen on the stock ECU, which is what I still have. But when you move on to tuning with a standalone, it's that rush from a top end that'll keep you going into the next gear. That's why unless I gatta cut down costs, I'll be exchanging my midrange AEM for a top end Injen once I get Boosted's DBW PFC kit, and getting a better top end header rather than this midrange header.

Jesse IL · 03-10-2007, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by killer2239

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse IL

Not according to your dyno.

I mean compared to before the header and after the header with tuning. Dont forget i removed the cat along with install, and i know they say power gains from removing cat is a few whp to. Between header and cat deletion, i did not gain what you would expect from a race header. Yes i know this header is a midrange header, but WR has said it gains power in all rpm range, but i show lower loss past 7500.

This is also making the assumption that your VVT map is good. From what I've seen of Power FC maps for cars with and without cats, you need to retard the cam up top significantly more to make power.

LilRocket took one of my maps and did some tuning with it on a Spyder with a 2ZZ swap. He made 187 whp. I looked at his VVT map, and he was running settings that I know were losing power on a GT-S with cat that I've been tuning.

**Boosted2.0** · 03-10-2007, 08:36 PM

I don't see whats surprising about these results - its the exact same thing Klutch saw - loss of power up top on stock ECU. Good to know you can actually barter it into a small gain with a standalone and tuning though.

If Killer2239 still has his stock header and wants to try ported with decat versus weapon R with decat I'll port his for free after I finish out my current backlog of orders just so we can get a better idea of whats going on with his car.

Redliner9k · 03-10-2007, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boosted2.0

I don't see whats surprising about these results - its the exact same thing Klutch saw - loss of power up top on stock ECU. Good to know you can actually barter it into a small gain with a standalone and tuning though.

If Killer2239 still has his stock header and wants to try ported with decat versus weapon R with decat I'll port his for free after I finish out my current backlog of orders just so we can get a better idea of whats going on with his car.

That's an excellent deal Boosted.

Jesse IL · 03-10-2007, 10:10 PM

I'd like to see that as well.

killer2239 · 03-10-2007, 11:00 PM

Boosted i will talk to you more about that later on. Im broke as hell right now, and id need header with blocked off ports, so id need to get an early 03 model one, i took all my air injection out. Plus my friend wont install for free again, we had a trade off for computer work and car work type thing, and then take in account another 110 dollars at the dyno.

Jesse - As far as my VVT goes, thats all i tuned when i was there. I didnt touch anything other than fuel and vvt. I did noticed i had to retard the vvt more in some spots, and towards redline i actually had to advance it some from where it was to gain back some of the power. I dont know if your familiar with hydra, but my VVT ranges anywhere from like -5 to positive 7ish i think. Id have to open the maps and look.

Pulsar1 · 03-10-2007, 11:12 PM

Indeed.

youngxlos · 03-11-2007, 10:47 AM

so what is wrong with the design here? i mean can someone try to give Leo some tips on re-designing the header to see if they make more power. i know red is trying to do a header for top end power but his funds are limited. if we try to talk to Leo he might be able to help. **** i can donate a few hundred dollars if it has to come down to it. as you all know i am all N/A and the header seems to be falling off the top end. so yeah can someone try to talk to Leo about this?

Redliner9k · 03-11-2007, 11:13 AM

I have stated more than once already what's wrong with there header. Anything more would be me actually giving them dimension which I won't do for free.

MyCelicaYouNV · 03-11-2007, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redliner9k

I have stated more than once already what's wrong with there header. Anything more would be me actually giving them dimension which I won't do for free.

Doesnt your header lose power up top too?

I mean...seriously if you know how to fix their header...Are you fixing yours?

killer2239 · 03-11-2007, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyCelicaYouNV

Doesnt your header lose power up top too?

I mean...seriously if you know how to fix their header...Are you fixing yours?

His header didnt cause loss in power, but it didnt gain really anymore power than a P&P one. He is pending a collector that he is having made by Burns to be sent to fix his design for top end.

MyCelicaYouNV · 03-11-2007, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by killer2239

His header didnt cause loss in power, but it didnt gain really anymore power than a P&P one. He is pending a collector that he is having made by Burns to be sent to fix his design for top end.

I see, im excited to see the progress of new headers for sure. Cant wait for someone to give me a reason to get rid of mine.

Redliner9k · 03-11-2007, 12:42 PM

Mine gained just a bit on top and maintained the peak power all the way to 7800rpm.

kortik · 03-11-2007, 04:08 PM

anybody aquired beatrush header LOL

Celicasaur · 03-11-2007, 08:47 PM

yeah, i think the way to settle this would be with a boosted header and decat on the same car.

from personal experience, my car had lots more 'midrange' albeit from my butt dyno, yet top end was much noticably better. could feel the nice vvtl-i jerk forwards, in third gear!

although this may have been helped a lot, by changing down to lightweight rims in the same week...

killer2239 · 03-11-2007, 09:50 PM

Unless people want to start a killer header fund raiser, i dont have about 350 dollars to get a early 03 stock exhaust manifold, boosted offer of free porting, and install (dunno labor), and 110 for dyno.

lilcoop_69 · 03-12-2007, 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyCelicaYouNV

Quote:

Originally Posted by killer2239

His header didnt cause loss in power, but it didnt gain really anymore power than a P&P one. He is pending a collector that he is having made by Burns to be sent to fix his design for top end.

I see, im excited to see the progress of new headers for sure. Cant wait for someone to give me a reason to get rid of mine.

What type of header and exhaust combo are you running with your S/c setup?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redliner9k

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boosted2.0

I don't see whats surprising about these results - its the exact same thing Klutch saw - loss of power up top on stock ECU. Good to know you can actually barter it into a small gain with a standalone and tuning though.

If Killer2239 still has his stock header and wants to try ported with decat versus weapon R with decat I'll port his for free after I finish out my current backlog of orders just so we can get a better idea of whats going on with his car.

That's an excellent deal Boosted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse IL

I'd like to see that as well.

x2...

TRlPPlN · 03-12-2007, 12:10 PM

^^^MyCelica is running a 2.5 WR race header.

MyCelicaYouNV · 03-12-2007, 12:36 PM

yeah as trippin said, WR race header and trd exhaust with the SC.

I'll have a dyno this weekend to show the power curve.

TRlPPlN · 03-12-2007, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyCelicaYouNV

yeah as trippin said, WR race header and trd exhaust with the SC.

I'll have a dyno this weekend to show the power curve.

are your running 2.5 all the way?? i know your getting 230 im wondering if you can squeeze more out with out the trd muffler.

MyCelicaYouNV · 03-12-2007, 12:45 PM

I'm pretty sure there could be more power seen with a strait through design or unbolted even...ive never tried....and i really dont care about MAX numbers...to sacrifice sound...

There is def more room for power as far as tuning, i just aquired a datalogit last friday...so im going to get a better tune this weekend.

I really wanna see a header that is worth me dumping mine.

killer2239 · 03-12-2007, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyCelicaYouNV

I'm pretty sure there could be more power seen with a strait through design or unbolted even...ive never tried....and i really dont care about MAX numbers...to sacrifice sound...

There is def more room for power as far as tuning, i just aquired a datalogit last friday...so im going to get a better tune this weekend.

I really wanna see a header that is worth me dumping mine.

Well as with Klutch and my experience, your not going to get any more peak power gains with that header on, unless its something else your changing. I cant even make same power as stock ecu with hydra past 7800rpm than the stock ecu does with stock header and cat. Just because you have a SC doesnt mean it will change how the header works on peak power.

Redliner knows what he is talking about, i just wish i had trusted his word more before i purchased the header. I thought maybe i could squeeze power out with a standalone but that wasnt even possible.

Seven-Of-Nine · 03-12-2007, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by killer2239

Just because you have a SC doesnt mean it will change how the header works on peak power.

Thats not strictly true as you are forcing a considerable amount more of exhaust gass through the system. Imagine a water hose pipe from a trickle to full flow turning the tap from off to full on.

Wish I had the money to pay for another DYNO with the modifications of the exhuast system and wider 2.5" ID flex pipe to see what the gains were over stock WR header with 2" ID and RMM exhaust.

killer2239 · 03-12-2007, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seven-Of-Nine

Thats not strictly true as you are forcing a considerable amount more of exhaust gass through the system. Imagine a water hose pipe from a trickle to full flow turning the tap from off to full on.

Wish I had the money to pay for another DYNO with the modifications of the exhuast system and wider 2.5" ID flex pipe to see what the gains were over stock WR header with 2" ID and RMM exhaust.

If you went from 2.0 to 2.5" exhaust then yeah you gained power. But the header is still restricting your peak power gains because of its design.

MyCelicaYouNV · 03-12-2007, 01:55 PM

I'm pretty sure the SC effects the power made by the header...

With more volume it may be just what it needs, more air.

Maybe N/A cars cant produce enough volume without fizzling out...Cuz the small motor we have starts fizziling out up top anyway. Its like breathing out as much as you can.

I could be wrong...but face it, every header on the market for the 2zz isn't up to par...

It makes more power then stock, so i dont see how im "losing power"

killer2239 · 03-12-2007, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyCelicaYouNV

It makes more power then stock, so i dont see how im "losing power"

How do you know your making more peak power if you didnt have a before and after? I should be approx 185whp with boosteds ported headers and cat delete since i was at 180whp before. And now i can barely make what stock ecu makes before header and cat-delete.

MyCelicaYouNV · 03-12-2007, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by killer2239

How do you know your making more peak power if you didnt have a before and after? I should be approx 185whp with boosteds ported headers and cat delete since i was at 180whp before. And now i can barely make what stock ecu makes before header and cat-delete.

who puts lift at 5100 on an NA car muchless a boosted car anyway? Maybe your tuner isnt sure of what he is doing?

Anyway...no way to tell without a before and after but my tuner tells me the header was a big part of why my car made the power it made over other greddy cars hes installed and tuned...that was good enough for me.

killer2239 · 03-12-2007, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyCelicaYouNV

who puts lift at 5100 on an NA car muchless a boosted car anyway? Maybe your tuner isnt sure of what he is doing?

Anyway...no way to tell without a before and after but my tuner tells me the header was a big part of why my car made the power it made over other greddy cars hes installed and tuned...that was good enough for me.

So your saying i cant tune my car? Considering i tuned it off of Matt's tune from MWR, and only thing you need to tune at that point is VVT and Fuel, and did you not see my power gains with lift lower vs it being at 5700rpm? Only change is the race header with cat delete. And the header releases the power flow at lower rpms with lift lowered. You saying Redliner doesnt know how to tune since he was able to lower lift to 5200rpm with his race header? How are you going to knock the lift at 5100 when it makes power starting there. Its not like im doing what a lot of honda owners do, go buy a VAFC and lower vtec without tuning it and thinking its faster. I actually have it tuned for good lift engagement that low.

MyCelicaYouNV · 03-12-2007, 03:11 PM

So its not possible for the early lift engagment...to actually reduce power on the top end with the race header? Its not like you're even at or near 5100rpms when you race anyway. its like 5800+.

Did you try tuning it out from 5800? maybe lift will stay stronger and not piddle out like it did on your dyno...

Obviously you cant expect an old tune to work with a different header....just because it makes nice power at 5100, which...is almost useless at that rpm point.

Im not hating by the way, i came off kind of sharp though, im sorry.

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03-10-2007, 12:40 PM	#1
killer2239 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Lexington, Kentucky Posts: 361 iTrader: (0)	2zz WR Race Header Results Beware!!! Im not happy. Not happy at all, well maybe a bit with midrange. The header loose power from approx 7500rpm to redline. And whats sad, is our cams are designed to peak power around 7600-7800rpm, so im now limited on peak power up top. I did not have time to tune 3500rpm to 5000rpm, but i know i have some power to gain in those areas still. Just no money to go back. Lift is at 5100rpm. However the header does give great gains between 4000-7000rpm. Just after that it goes downhill. Am i happy or mad? I have to say im mad, i did gain midrange, but i lost the power where it matters the most in a race. Will i try to get a new header in the future? Hell yeah, whenever i get more money i will. WRLeo - This is no offense to you personally, but for a race header, this header sucks. And i personally dont recommend it to anyone on stock ecu, if they have standalone i would advise people that its a midrange header, not a top end power gainer. I would prefer a header with power gains from 5000 to redline, not start falling short after 7500rpm and causing more power loss than stock header. I honestly feel i wasted my money with this. Even though i got the great price on it, but the results of midrange are not worth loosing the top end. If you all redesign the 2zz version header, and want to give it a try for exchanging the headers out for new design, i will be willing to try a new version. Any questions on something i missed please let me know. Below are dyno results. Sorry they are on MPH instead of RPM on the runs with hydra. They were using injector wire for tach, and hydra screwed with their sensor for reading it. My 181whp at MWR is now a thing of the past. Stock ECU vs Hydra tuned Hydra tuned vs Hydra tuned before header Stock ECU before header and after header Stock ECU - Before and after header again, but in engine rpm since stock ecu __________________ 05 XRS, Intake, Exhaust, TWM SS, Tein S.Techs, Progress RSB, ES Motor Mounts, 17" RH Evolution wheels, Bored Throttle, Fidanza, Exedy, Hydra EMS, 182whp w/ lift 5500rpm. Last edited by killer2239 : 03-10-2007 at 01:29 PM.

03-10-2007, 01:11 PM	#4
killer2239 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Lexington, Kentucky Posts: 361 iTrader: (0)	I guess its not so bad top end if you have something to tune with. But the upper rpms i should be making more power than i was before i had the header installed. But your right, i did gain midrange everywhere out the ass. Im just upset that for a race header, it kinda stumps the peak power. EDIT: Guys, maybe i was little to harsh on the header. The midrange gains are extremely nice. But top end is kinda stumped now, which is why im so mad. Just for a race header on a car that is made to rev, id prefer gains from 5000-redline, not 3500 to 7000rpm. __________________ 05 XRS, Intake, Exhaust, TWM SS, Tein S.Techs, Progress RSB, ES Motor Mounts, 17" RH Evolution wheels, Bored Throttle, Fidanza, Exedy, Hydra EMS, 182whp w/ lift 5500rpm. Last edited by killer2239 : 03-10-2007 at 01:16 PM.

03-10-2007, 01:27 PM	#5
Archer2KGTS Now 100% More Retired Join Date: May 2004 Location: Tucson, Arizona / Detroit Lakes, Minnesota Posts: 2,345 iTrader: (20)	Nice change to your sig... LOL Hydra EMS 175whp lift at 5100rpm, was 181whp until WR Race Header But these results are as expected. We all knew this was a mid range header. I know when you hear race header you think top end. But you know what, horsepower is just like watts in the car audio world. Peak power out is important yes, but your RMS power out is where its at. Same thing with horsepower/torque. Yeah cool you are putting down 800 RWHP peak in your Supra, too bad with the excessive large turbo you only have 500 RPMs of that power available. You gained a lot in mid-range and mid-range is just as important as peak. A loss of 6whp isn't going to kill you. It can be made up somewhere else with other mods or additional tuning. :::QUICK EDIT::: Also, the differences in dynos from MWR to the one where you dynoed this time round as well as changes in conditions could affect your power. __________________ ZX10R > ZX6R > Walking > Celica

03-10-2007, 02:38 PM	#9
jlitman (Anti)Social Psychologist Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 11,034 iTrader: (39)	I'm a little slow on the uptake -- would you mind editing the thread to explicitly state RED = X and BLACK = Y. I'm not clear on what is going on on in some of these graphs. __________________ 2010 Fairlady Z34

03-10-2007, 02:45 PM	#12
elcelicagts Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: southern ca. Posts: 1,328 iTrader: (2)	^ yeah its hard for me to really tell what’s going on with the graphs also. But even to someone as inexperienced as me its obvious that power was made throughout, along with that nice gap in the midrange. also, Different dyno was used at MWR right? if that’s the case, that would explain a difference in peak WHP right? __________________ 2003 GTS 6speed Greddy charged 216whp Greddy charged celica on dynojet

03-10-2007, 02:49 PM	#14
killer2239 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Lexington, Kentucky Posts: 361 iTrader: (0)	Clark_W29 is the run with WR Race header on stock ecu Clark_W31 is run with hydra with MWR tune without header Clark_W45 is the last run with Hydra tuning done Warner_vett one was last time i went before header install, they messed up when saving it last time i was there. __________________ 05 XRS, Intake, Exhaust, TWM SS, Tein S.Techs, Progress RSB, ES Motor Mounts, 17" RH Evolution wheels, Bored Throttle, Fidanza, Exedy, Hydra EMS, 182whp w/ lift 5500rpm.

03-10-2007, 02:53 PM	#15
killer2239 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Lexington, Kentucky Posts: 361 iTrader: (0)	Im making 1whp more with hydra on peak power than the stock ecu, and the XRS is Detuned! Yes they are different dynos, but considering i removed cat, have a race header on, it should still make close to 180 to 185whp. Monkeywrench - Has anyone dynoed with I/E on stock ecu of 05 or 06 XRS there that you can post?? __________________ 05 XRS, Intake, Exhaust, TWM SS, Tein S.Techs, Progress RSB, ES Motor Mounts, 17" RH Evolution wheels, Bored Throttle, Fidanza, Exedy, Hydra EMS, 182whp w/ lift 5500rpm.

03-10-2007, 02:56 PM	#16
jlitman (Anti)Social Psychologist Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 11,034 iTrader: (39)	Okay, that's considerably clearer. So (correct me if I'm wrong) without tuning, the WR header always loses a little at the very top, and otherwise shows modest gains throughout the rest of the rev range. With tuning, it gains throughout the rev range AND at top. That's not bad at all, though it means the header isn't worth it for someone who (1) Is most interested in top end gains and (2) is sticking with the stock ECU only. But yes -- you can only compare proportion (%) gain and location of gain in the rev range between the two dynos -- they are apples and oranges comparisons in terms of the absoulte values. __________________ 2010 Fairlady Z34

03-10-2007, 02:57 PM	#17
elcelicagts Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: southern ca. Posts: 1,328 iTrader: (2)	so would the blue area be like a 5 whp gain?? and the orange area be like a 15-20 whp gain in midrange (4500-5500 rpm)?? __________________ 2003 GTS 6speed Greddy charged 216whp Greddy charged celica on dynojet

03-10-2007, 04:04 PM	#20
Redliner9k RED Tuning Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Puerto Rico Posts: 1,441 iTrader: (4)	Am gonna post my 0.02cents on this matter. Short and straight... The header IMO is not worth it. Take into account that Killer dynoed on that very same dyno 171whp with a stock header and stock ECU, to now pushing 175whp after a Hydra tune. You can all bitch about how peak #'s dont matte, but the matter of a fact is that Killer is now loosing a whole 1000rpm powerband which is very critical (He has rev limiter at 8500rpm). He drag races and street races. Now all of you argue about the midrange gains. You do know that having this header won't make your car a better daily driver. Not like your gonna be feeling all those gains at partial throttle. Now, midrange is wonderful if you autocross, time attack, Solo1, etc, but for Killers style of racing it aint. Once he shifts that first gear, he has nothing but something holding him back and not helping. Midrange is a thing of the past and all that helps him now is the top end. Now taking into account that while installing this header he deleted the cat which various testing have proven to gain 3-5whp alone, then I would say this header is lacking quite a bit. I've said all along, with the length of there primaries and secondaries and the use of that conventional collector if you expect anything else from what's being tested then your living a dream. My 0.02cents __________________ "Live For Lift"

03-10-2007, 05:41 PM	#21
Mike21 9000rpm Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 631 iTrader: (3)	how big is your exhaust? __________________ 2001 Honda S2000

03-10-2007, 08:36 PM	#24
Boosted2.0 Moderator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 13,600 iTrader: (15)	I don't see whats surprising about these results - its the exact same thing Klutch saw - loss of power up top on stock ECU. Good to know you can actually barter it into a small gain with a standalone and tuning though. If Killer2239 still has his stock header and wants to try ported with decat versus weapon R with decat I'll port his for free after I finish out my current backlog of orders just so we can get a better idea of whats going on with his car. __________________ Now offering: 2ZZ Performance Intake Manifold \| 2ZZ Ported Headers \| 2ZZ Ported Cylinder Heads \| PowerFC Harnesses for DBW and Auto 2ZZ \| MR2 Spyder 2ZZ Swap Kits \| Engine Builds \| Turbo / Supercharger installation \| Tuning Sales Inquiries: Sales@DDPerformanceResearch.com Technical Inquiries: Technical@DDPerformanceResearch.com

03-10-2007, 10:10 PM	#26
Jesse IL GT2871R Inside Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 18,169 iTrader: (14)	I'd like to see that as well. __________________

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03-10-2007, 11:00 PM	#27
killer2239 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Lexington, Kentucky Posts: 361 iTrader: (0)	Boosted i will talk to you more about that later on. Im broke as hell right now, and id need header with blocked off ports, so id need to get an early 03 model one, i took all my air injection out. Plus my friend wont install for free again, we had a trade off for computer work and car work type thing, and then take in account another 110 dollars at the dyno. Jesse - As far as my VVT goes, thats all i tuned when i was there. I didnt touch anything other than fuel and vvt. I did noticed i had to retard the vvt more in some spots, and towards redline i actually had to advance it some from where it was to gain back some of the power. I dont know if your familiar with hydra, but my VVT ranges anywhere from like -5 to positive 7ish i think. Id have to open the maps and look. __________________ 05 XRS, Intake, Exhaust, TWM SS, Tein S.Techs, Progress RSB, ES Motor Mounts, 17" RH Evolution wheels, Bored Throttle, Fidanza, Exedy, Hydra EMS, 182whp w/ lift 5500rpm.

03-10-2007, 11:12 PM	#28
Pulsar1 Mike Jones drives a Honda Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 2,508 iTrader: (7)	Indeed.

03-11-2007, 10:47 AM	#29
youngxlos GT2860RS Inside Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Lorton, VA Posts: 6,579 iTrader: (36)	so what is wrong with the design here? i mean can someone try to give Leo some tips on re-designing the header to see if they make more power. i know red is trying to do a header for top end power but his funds are limited. if we try to talk to Leo he might be able to help. **** i can donate a few hundred dollars if it has to come down to it. as you all know i am all N/A and the header seems to be falling off the top end. so yeah can someone try to talk to Leo about this? __________________ 2ZZ-GTE in the works

03-11-2007, 11:13 AM	#30
Redliner9k RED Tuning Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Puerto Rico Posts: 1,441 iTrader: (4)	I have stated more than once already what's wrong with there header. Anything more would be me actually giving them dimension which I won't do for free. __________________ "Live For Lift"

03-11-2007, 12:42 PM	#34
Redliner9k RED Tuning Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Puerto Rico Posts: 1,441 iTrader: (4)	Mine gained just a bit on top and maintained the peak power all the way to 7800rpm. __________________ "Live For Lift"

03-11-2007, 04:08 PM	#35
kortik Registered User Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Seattle,WA Posts: 2,898 iTrader: (2)	anybody aquired beatrush header LOL __________________ 05 Matrix XRS Indigo Ink Pearl Progress RSB, TRD STB, Custom Borla 2.5" Exhaust, PPE header, Tein SS, TWM SS, Injen CAI, JDM helical LSD from spyder, RPS Max/Street, C-One Type R Flywheel, ES Motor Mounts, 18" Volks GT-S, HYDRA EMS

03-11-2007, 08:47 PM	#36
Celicasaur 213WHP N/A 2zz Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: London Posts: 4,250 iTrader: (20)	yeah, i think the way to settle this would be with a boosted header and decat on the same car. from personal experience, my car had lots more 'midrange' albeit from my butt dyno, yet top end was much noticably better. could feel the nice vvtl-i jerk forwards, in third gear! although this may have been helped a lot, by changing down to lightweight rims in the same week... __________________ Need Denso 440cc injectors for your N/A beast? I'm your man. Celicasaur wishlist for 2010: Boosted2.0 Race IM By a new damn front lip! C-One short ratio gears Direct-Port Nitrous - 100 shot Goals for 2010: 225whp N/A - 400whp with nitrous

03-11-2007, 09:50 PM	#37
killer2239 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Lexington, Kentucky Posts: 361 iTrader: (0)	Unless people want to start a killer header fund raiser, i dont have about 350 dollars to get a early 03 stock exhaust manifold, boosted offer of free porting, and install (dunno labor), and 110 for dyno. __________________ 05 XRS, Intake, Exhaust, TWM SS, Tein S.Techs, Progress RSB, ES Motor Mounts, 17" RH Evolution wheels, Bored Throttle, Fidanza, Exedy, Hydra EMS, 182whp w/ lift 5500rpm.

03-12-2007, 12:10 PM	#39
TRlPPlN im a looser Join Date: May 2001 Location: Bay Area, Cali. Posts: 6,660 iTrader: (19)	^^^MyCelica is running a 2.5 WR race header.

03-12-2007, 12:36 PM	#40
MyCelicaYouNV 00 Celica GTS Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Jacksonville FL Posts: 748 iTrader: (3)	yeah as trippin said, WR race header and trd exhaust with the SC. I'll have a dyno this weekend to show the power curve. __________________ -Steve- [2000 Celica GTS 6 speed] [Apexi' Power FC] [Greddy Supercharged] [230whp][160wtq]

03-12-2007, 12:45 PM	#42
MyCelicaYouNV 00 Celica GTS Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Jacksonville FL Posts: 748 iTrader: (3)	I'm pretty sure there could be more power seen with a strait through design or unbolted even...ive never tried....and i really dont care about MAX numbers...to sacrifice sound... There is def more room for power as far as tuning, i just aquired a datalogit last friday...so im going to get a better tune this weekend. I really wanna see a header that is worth me dumping mine. __________________ -Steve- [2000 Celica GTS 6 speed] [Apexi' Power FC] [Greddy Supercharged] [230whp][160wtq]

03-12-2007, 01:55 PM	#46
MyCelicaYouNV 00 Celica GTS Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Jacksonville FL Posts: 748 iTrader: (3)	I'm pretty sure the SC effects the power made by the header... With more volume it may be just what it needs, more air. Maybe N/A cars cant produce enough volume without fizzling out...Cuz the small motor we have starts fizziling out up top anyway. Its like breathing out as much as you can. I could be wrong...but face it, every header on the market for the 2zz isn't up to par... It makes more power then stock, so i dont see how im "losing power" __________________ -Steve- [2000 Celica GTS 6 speed] [Apexi' Power FC] [Greddy Supercharged] [230whp][160wtq]

03-12-2007, 03:11 PM	#50
MyCelicaYouNV 00 Celica GTS Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Jacksonville FL Posts: 748 iTrader: (3)	So its not possible for the early lift engagment...to actually reduce power on the top end with the race header? Its not like you're even at or near 5100rpms when you race anyway. its like 5800+. Did you try tuning it out from 5800? maybe lift will stay stronger and not piddle out like it did on your dyno... Obviously you cant expect an old tune to work with a different header....just because it makes nice power at 5100, which...is almost useless at that rpm point. Im not hating by the way, i came off kind of sharp though, im sorry. __________________ -Steve- [2000 Celica GTS 6 speed] [Apexi' Power FC] [Greddy Supercharged] [230whp][160wtq]

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