How much Boost you can and should run

[Boosted2.0]

The purpose of this thread is to explain once and for all the relationship between power, strength of internal components and boost.


The Boost myth

I couldn’t even begin to count the number of times a week someone asks the question “How much boost can I run on a stock 1ZZ” or “How much Boost can I run on a stock 2ZZ” or “How much Boost can I run with these internal mods” without any more info on their setup.

So – newsflash – aside from how it impacts type of couplers and clamps used boost is completely irrelevant. Boost will be different at the same power level based on turbo efficiency, intercooler efficiency, tune, cams, intake and exhaust, etc. Anything you do to improve the VE (Volumetric Efficiency aka how easily the engine breathes) will allow you to make more power at a lower indicated boost level. Boost essentially is a function of the turbo or superchargers ability to cram more air into the intake manifold than the engine can effectively pass. This is why you tend to see a flat spot or dip in boost when lift engages on a 2ZZ – the larger lift and duration of the big cam lobes drastically increases the vehicles VE (ability to breathe). This reduces the “restriction” that the cylinder head poses allowing a higher volume of air to flow at lower pressure. Less efficient turbos will also heat the air more, which will result in higher pressure or boost, but a much less dense and hence less potent air charge. This is why bigger turbos tend to make much more power at lower boost levels.

OK – now that you understand that boost is irrelevant, what you need to know is that what matters are power and tune. The amount of power being made is what determines the point at which components will fail. This is dependant on a good solid tune. A really bad tune can cause internal component failure on any vehicle at very low power levels. Torque is really the factor that matters, but it isn’t talked about much so I’m going to talk in terms of HP instead.

This being said – on a perfect tune the following seem to be the limits of the stock components:

2ZZ
Pistons – ring lands seem to crack or fail at the 250 / 275 WHP mark
Rods – No reported failures from over-power
Block – no block failures due to power, but based on the lack of ring strength most people who want over 300 whp get sleeves and aftermarket pistons or Mahle pistons in stock bores if their bores are in good shape.
Bearings – probably best to change these out at or above 300 WHP
Head bolts - Replace with studs if you have to take the head off for any other upgrades. They seem to be fine at most common power levels, but they should not be re-used.


1ZZ
Pistons – ring lands probably will fail at about the 250/275 WHP mark
Rods – have failed below 250 WHP mark
Block – No block failures due to power that I am aware of. Best to stick with close to stock bore size at higher power levels above 300 WHP
Bearings – probably best to change these out at or above 250 WHP
Head bolts - Replace with studs if you have to take the head off for any other upgrades. They seem to be fine at most common power levels, but they should not be re-used.


That I am aware of no-one has failed ANY of the aftermarket upgraded rods, pistons or bearings due to over-power.


Jesse's thoughts on Tuning and how much boost is safe on a stock Celica Motor:

Originally Posted by Jesse IL

I believe you've understated the importance of tuning in your explanation.

The simple answer to your question is: Zero. No boost.

Adding any forced induction kit is not safe, when it comes right down to it. Modding a factory turbocharged vehicle is WAY different than adding a turbo kit to an N/A car. Factory ECU's are already tuned to run at the factory power level and typically have the internal maps to run at higher power levels. They can do this safely with something as simple as a boost controller, which requires no smarts to install. The car may not have optimized power, but it will be SAFE, and that's what's important.

A turbo kit, minues some potential exhaust welding, is a bolt-on affair. A programmable ECU, such as the Power FC, is NOT a bolt-on part, despite that fact that it snaps in so easily. A turbocharged 7th gen Celica is for all practical purposes a race car. If the term "race car" would normally scare you off, that's good. It should. Most average Celica owners wouldn't walk into the pits at a race and feel they have any business getting involved with the race mechanics. Tuning a programmable ECU from scratch is not a job for your average recreational modder. There is not a magic "map" floating around that will have your car running in tip top shape (although that doesn't stop people from asking for one at least once a week). Maps can be shared relatively safely on N/A Celica's because all setups are virtually identical, varying by a few percent from car to car.

Next problem: there is virtually nobody out there who CAN tune your car for you. I've lost track of the number of threads started by people who brought their car to a "tuner" and and up with a car making not only no power, but doing it in an unsafe manner. The "tuner" claims that the car won't make any more power. The real problem is the the supposed tuner is a fvcking hack. Its really easy to take a factory turbocharged car and add/subtract a little fuel and timing with a piggyback and then award yourself the label Tuner. You give the same guy a Power FC and he won't know what to do. They are lost when given an undefined map, and control over all the variables that the factory ECU conveniently controls for you. Next problem is that most good tuners I know of actually blew up several engines in the process of finding what did and didn't work. I've blown up one, possibly two engines myself, which is a big reason why I know so much about what does and does not work.

The point of all this is that if you think turbocharging your Celica is as simple as breaking out your credit card to purchase parts, you're in for a rude awakening. Unless you can do the tuning yourself, you better have someone with a proven track record (such as MWR) lined up to tune your car before you ever buy anything. Otherwise, I'd bet good money you're going to end up being yet another person starting a thread about their blown engine or at best poor-running car.

While I didn't intend this post to be a "You need to tune your car" thread, Jesse is exactly right. There are a couple people on this board that are accomplished tuners, and there are a couple high level recreational tuners, and then there are a WHOLE lot of people with basically untuned time bombs

[Boosted2.0]

If anyone has anything they feel should be added or changed or explained more clearly feel free to speak up.

[Punkers7465]

good thread idea!

side note -monkey wrench has over 500whp and I'm pretty sure he is still using stock 2zz rods. can anyone second this?

[Boosted2.0]

Originally Posted by Punkers7465

good thread idea!

side note -monkey wrench has over 500whp and I'm pretty sure he is still using stock 2zz rods. can anyone second this?

Is Matt still on stock rods?

[Punkers7465]

I just checked his 500whp thread as well as his website and it just says "built engine" but he only mentions the mahle pistons. He makes a point to say that the engine is not sleeved but I dont really know about the rods....

[Jesse IL]

Originally Posted by Boosted2.0

Is Matt still on stock rods?

Yes. Mahle pistons only. I don't think there's any known failure of 2ZZ rods at any power level.

EDIT: info summarized above in first post.

[S|Lv3rBu||et]

Great posts guys. Can you say "sticky?"

[Boosted2.0]

KK I fixed the rods comment and added Jesses quote to the top post

[greddyturb0]

good job also i think it is vital to get a new clutch even if your not making too much power. that was one of the reason that held me back from going over 7psi

[SickCelica696]

Originally Posted by Boosted2.0

KK I fixed the rods comment and added Jesses quote to the top post

Nice thread. Might want to remove his post so it's not on there twice though

[Boosted2.0]

can't - I'm not a moderator

[trdnerd]

Originally Posted by greddyturb0

good job also i think it is vital to get a new clutch even if your not making too much power. that was one of the reason that held me back from going over 7psi

Ive been running a stock clutch for about 10,000 miles with no problem. Car makes 180wtq and never once has my stock clutch failed me. I guess its more about how you drive. I recommend a clutch but Its not a must for the install IMO.

[trdnerd]

Do we know for a fact that 1zz rods fail do to power or other things like the older 1zz oil problems? Again I had fuel issues for a while under boost my car would not add fuel so my a/f were 14.5 give or take. I never had any internal problems even running that lean for over a year.

[badceli]

After I bought a turbo kit, one of my first threads was something like this...."Hey guys, I want 500 WHP so I can smoke Corvettes and be the coolest kid on my block. What all do I need to buy to make this happen?"

The experts on this site replied with...."Dude....you're a dumbass. Build your car so it will actually drive well instead of shooting for the highest horsepower possible".

I didn't listen to them. Now I wish I had. So to you guys asking how much power your motor can handle....stop. Instead, ask what is a good amount of power for Celica and believe what the experts on here tell you.

[NeXuS-GT]

Originally Posted by Boosted2.0

“How much boost can I run on a stock 2ZZ” or “How much Boost can I run on a stock 2ZZ”

Maybe you mean 1ZZ in the first

[jlitman]

I have a question: Regarding the damaged ring lands -- isn't that only an issue with excessive knock, meaning it's not a power issue per se, but rather a tuning issue?

That is, can't that happen at lower power levels, and along those same lines, can't higher power levels be safely achieved provided the tune is good and the engine isn't knocking?

Follow-up question: Is there such a thing as aftermarket / heavy duty ring lands that are less likely to be damaged?

Also, any thoughts on MT and AT tranny strength in relation to power levels? I guess the limits of both will be tested by MWR...

[Black_TRD]

Originally Posted by jlitman

I have a question: Regarding the damaged ring lands -- isn't that only an issue with excessive knock, meaning it's not a power issue per se, but rather a tuning issue?

That is, can't that happen at lower power levels, and along those same lines, can't higher power levels be safely achieved provided the tune is good and the engine isn't knocking?

Follow-up question: Is there such a thing as aftermarket / heavy duty ring lands that are less likely to be damaged?

Also, any thoughts on MT and AT tranny strength in relation to power levels? I guess the limits of both will be tested by MWR...

Even with a perfect tune a higher power levels there will be a thin line between ok and knock.

Ring lands are part of the pistons so the only way is by using aftermarket forged pistons.

[Boosted2.0]

Originally Posted by trdnerd

Do we know for a fact that 1zz rods fail do to power or other things like the older 1zz oil problems? Again I had fuel issues for a while under boost my car would not add fuel so my a/f were 14.5 give or take. I never had any internal problems even running that lean for over a year.

There have been at least 2 or 3 over the years that folded the rods without any signs of oil starvation, spun bearings or severe detonation

[Boosted2.0]

Originally Posted by jlitman

I have a question: Regarding the damaged ring lands -- isn't that only an issue with excessive knock, meaning it's not a power issue per se, but rather a tuning issue?

That is, can't that happen at lower power levels, and along those same lines, can't higher power levels be safely achieved provided the tune is good and the engine isn't knocking?

Follow-up question: Is there such a thing as aftermarket / heavy duty ring lands that are less likely to be damaged?

Also, any thoughts on MT and AT tranny strength in relation to power levels? I guess the limits of both will be tested by MWR...

Yes knock is the usual killer of rings and the ring lands on the pistons but high power levels do the same thing. Matt at MWR failed his ring lands without detonation. It is possible that you might make an engine live at 350 for a while but you will be living on a ragged ragged edge. Much better to set your build target lower.

Aftermarket pistons usually come with larger meatier ring lands.

Tranny strength has its own thread

[Jesse IL]

Originally Posted by jlitman

I have a question: Regarding the damaged ring lands -- isn't that only an issue with excessive knock, meaning it's not a power issue per se, but rather a tuning issue?

That is, can't that happen at lower power levels, and along those same lines, can't higher power levels be safely achieved provided the tune is good and the engine isn't knocking?

At very high power levels, the cylinder pressure is so high that you run on a knife edge where any knock could crack the ring lands. That is what happened to MWR.

But you're absolutely right, it can happen on even an N/A car with excessive knock. A poor tune in the Power FC could do it, which is exactly what happened to youngxlos.

Originally Posted by jlitman

Follow-up question: Is there such a thing as aftermarket / heavy duty ring lands that are less likely to be damaged?

The ring land is the outer edge of the top of the piston, extending downwards to the top of the first compression ring, hence the name. This area of the piston is known to fracture on the stock pistons.

[jlitman]

Thanks, Black_TRD, Boosted, and Jesse for the clarification and additional info

[GTsRasta]

[Red Falcon]

Sticky.

[ik3vini]

^^agreed, i may need this in the near future again.

[Boosted2.0]

This thread is linked off the turbo FAQ sticky under the how much boost can I run section

[Gravel]

This is an excellent thread, thank you Boosted2.0 and JesseIL

How much labour is involved in a (Mahle) piston swap without any bore mods, and would it make sense to change/uprate the crank bearings at the same time?

[Jesse IL]

Originally Posted by Gravel

This is an excellent thread, thank you Boosted2.0 and JesseIL

How much labour is involved in a (Mahle) piston swap without any bore mods, and would it make sense to change/uprate the crank bearings at the same time?

You technically could do it with the engine in place.

1. Pull cylinder head.
2. Remove oil pan.
3. Unbolt rod bearing caps.
4. Push pistons out through top.
5. Have machine shop install new pistons on rods.
6. Install new pistons (ammusing they fit).
7. Install new bearings and torque rod caps.
8. Install cylinder head.
9. Install oil pan.

[Boosted2.0]

Originally Posted by Jesse IL

You technically could do it with the engine in place.

1. Pull cylinder head.
2. Remove oil pan.
3. Unbolt rod bearing caps.
4. Push pistons out through top.
5. Have machine shop install new pistons on rods.
6. Install new pistons (ammusing they fit).
7. Install new bearings and torque rod caps.
8. Install cylinder head.
9. Install oil pan.

I think it would be easier to just pull the motor but yeah, it could be done in the car.

And yes - you should definitely upgrade the rod bearings, and if you take the motor out of the car upgrade the mains as well.

[enjoi4586]

Originally Posted by Jesse IL

5. Have machine shop install new pistons on rods.

Why can't you do that yourself ?

[Jesse IL]

Originally Posted by Boosted2.0

I think it would be easier to just pull the motor but yeah, it could be done in the car.

Easier as far as getting at parts of the engine, but removing the motor is no easy task. The sheer amount of assembly/disassembly is daunting, not to mention you're assuming everyone just has an engine hoist sitting around. If you're doing the job by yourself, simply getting the hoist into place and getting the motor out can be a big challenge depending on your garage/driveway setup.

Personally, I think pulling the head with the motor in place would ultimately be less work. There are definitely headaches involved, such as working on the front cover in extremely tight confines and trying to get the tensioner pivot bolt to clear the frame, but given a choice I'd definitely do it that way, unless I were going to bundle a bunch of work together, such as clutch/flywheel/transmission work.

[Boosted2.0]

Originally Posted by Jesse IL

Easier as far as getting at parts of the engine, but removing the motor is no easy task. The sheer amount of assembly/disassembly is daunting, not to mention you're assuming everyone just has an engine hoist sitting around. If you're doing the job by yourself, simply getting the hoist into place and getting the motor out can be a big challenge depending on your garage/driveway setup.

Personally, I think pulling the head with the motor in place would ultimately be less work. There are definitely headaches involved, such as working on the front cover in extremely tight confines and trying to get the tensioner pivot bolt to clear the frame, but given a choice I'd definitely do it that way, unless I were going to bundle a bunch of work together, such as clutch/flywheel/transmission work.

It takes me less time to pull the motor out of a 7th gen then it does to change the header out with the motor in the car.

Maybe you are just slow?

[Jesse IL]

You and Smaay must be drinking the same happy juice. I changed a header in somewhere between 2-2.5 hours and that included pulling the exhaust apart, jacking the car up/down and doing all the work from my back.

Here is a short list of what you could easily spend the first 2.5 hours doing:

1. Jack car up
2. Remove both front wheels
3. Remove front end
4. Remove all underbody and wheel well plastics
5. Drain oil
6. Drain trans fluid
7. Drain coolant (you have to let all three of these drain for a few minutes)
8. Get radiator hoses off the radiator (not always easy if they've been on there a while)
9. Remove radiator header, reservoir tank and reservoir support

NOTE: Need I mention that all this time, you're being careful to keep track of where everything goes so that it goes back together without mysterious bolts and lost items

10. Remove radiator

Notice I haven't even gotten to any of the axles, subframe, motor mounts, fuel line or wiring that needs to be disassembled in order to pull the motor? I could have kept going with that list. Bottom line: you're fvcking dreaming. If you can really do all that work in a couple hours, then hats off to you. You also have probably 20X the tools (not an exageration) of 99% of the people on this board, not to mention the engine hoist which costs a pretty penny to rent or buy. Your advice in this instance is just not relevant. Don't get me started on Jeff and his advice which caused me to crack my manifold...

[Entranced]

Boosted. Add in a rough estimate for when things fail in relation to boost (psi)


MWR said that the ring lands on the 2zz failed at around 15 psi on their 2zz... you could probably ask them to see if they have found anything else out.

It would help end all of the "how much boost can... blah blah blah"
Some might not know how to relate PSI to HP on their cars, but then again, it does change per car/tune... so go about it however you think is best.

[Jesse IL]

^^^^

Originally Posted by Boosted2.0

aside from how it impacts type of couplers and clamps used boost is completely irrelevant.

[Entranced]

haha, missed that line =P

sorry, i retract my statements made =P

[Gravel]

Thanks guys - sounds like a piston swap would be seriously expensive in the UK - labour is £60-100/$120-200 per hour - I guess the cost of the parts would vanish in the noise!

[Boosted2.0]

Originally Posted by Jesse IL

You and Smaay must be drinking the same happy juice. I changed a header in somewhere between 2-2.5 hours and that included pulling the exhaust apart, jacking the car up/down and doing all the work from my back.

Here is a short list of what you could easily spend the first 2.5 hours doing:

1. Jack car up
2. Remove both front wheels
3. Remove front end
4. Remove all underbody and wheel well plastics
5. Drain oil
6. Drain trans fluid
7. Drain coolant (you have to let all three of these drain for a few minutes)
8. Get radiator hoses off the radiator (not always easy if they've been on there a while)
9. Remove radiator header, reservoir tank and reservoir support

NOTE: Need I mention that all this time, you're being careful to keep track of where everything goes so that it goes back together without mysterious bolts and lost items

10. Remove radiator

Notice I haven't even gotten to any of the axles, subframe, motor mounts, fuel line or wiring that needs to be disassembled in order to pull the motor? I could have kept going with that list. Bottom line: you're fvcking dreaming. If you can really do all that work in a couple hours, then hats off to you. You also have probably 20X the tools (not an exageration) of 99% of the people on this board, not to mention the engine hoist which costs a pretty penny to rent or buy. Your advice in this instance is just not relevant. Don't get me started on Jeff and his advice which caused me to crack my manifold...

You list would take me about 25 - 30 minutes. I can seriously have the engine out of a Celica in about 2 to 2.5 hours working by myself. I have yet to do a header swap in under 3.5 hours - I have big hands so all those stupid little heat shield bolts kick my ass.

The difference is just in 2 things - technique and the Makita 14.2V 3/8" cordless impact. You forget that this is my profession and it was ALL I did for quite a few years. I've removed a lot of motors in my day, I'm not afraid of them, and I know what needs to be done and in what order it needs to be done. I lay out all the tools ahead of time, I know what size everything is and whats needed to remove it, I drain all the fluids simultaneously while i am doing dissasembly on the top and at the wheels. I don't remove subframe or anything like that and I don't ubolt the axles - I remove the calipers, bungee them up out of the way and take the hubs loose at the top where it bolts to the strut and at the lower control arm and just swing them out of the way. Add to that the fact that the cordless impact takes most bolts off in about a second and will usually break anything under 17mm loose and there you have it. If I go under the car I take everything I need to do everything under the car and I get it all at one shot.

I have no idea why it would take anyone with proper tools and reasonable exerience level much more than 3 to 3.5 hours to remove the engine & Tranny. Theres just not that much to it.

As for loosing bolts and stuff - I put everything back where I took it from or I lay it down next to the component that it came off with. It also helps that I have a 3 car garage and a 4'x8' work bench with a 4'x8' shelf on the bottom I can put tools and parts on during teardown

[Boosted2.0]

Maybe Matt will chime in and say how long it takes him to pull an engine

[Celicahzn]

Originally Posted by Boosted2.0

You list would take me about 25 - 30 minutes. I can seriously have the engine out of a Celica in about 2 to 2.5 hours working by myself. I have yet to do a header swap in under 3.5 hours - I have big hands so all those stupid little heat shield bolts kick my ass.

The difference is just in 2 things - technique and the Makita 14.2V 3/8" cordless impact. You forget that this is my profession and it was ALL I did for quite a few years. I've removed a lot of motors in my day, I'm not afraid of them, and I know what needs to be done and in what order it needs to be done. I lay out all the tools ahead of time, I know what size everything is and whats needed to remove it, I drain all the fluids simultaneously while i am doing dissasembly on the top and at the wheels. I don't remove subframe or anything like that and I don't ubolt the axles - I remove the calipers, bungee them up out of the way and take the hubs loose at the top where it bolts to the strut and at the lower control arm and just swing them out of the way. Add to that the fact that the cordless impact takes most bolts off in about a second and will brake anything under 17mm loose and there you have it. If I go under the car I take everything I need to do everything under the car and I get it all at one shot.

I have no idea why it would take anyone with proper tools and reasonable exerience level much more than 3 to 3.5 hours to remove the engine & Tranny. Theres just not that much to it.

As for loosing bolts and stuff - I put everything back where I took it from or I lay it down next to the component that it came off with. It also helps that I have a 3 car garage and a 4'x8' work bench with a 4'x8' shelf on the bottom I can put tools and parts on during teardown

wow truely a role model. hahaha. wish i can do that some day.

[Boosted2.0]

In case anyone was wondering you can get a Dewalt 18V cordless impact for about $250 at Lowes that has more torque than my Makita does and the battery lasts longer. It comes with a charger and 2 batteries and is worth every penny.

[Genomaxter]

... Boosted .. is... insane! But then again I guess he deserves the name if he can pull an engine that fast. Tho it makes me wonder if hes also the type of guy to steal cars from people and strip them down before the police can find it then sell the parts. So how long did it take you to upgrade from Boosted 1.0 to 2.0

[Boosted2.0]

Originally Posted by Genomaxter

So how long did it take you to upgrade from Boosted 1.0 to 2.0

Actually I upgraded from Griffin to Boosted 2.0 - the 2.0 is indicative of this being my second screenname and also the displacement of the turbocharged motor in my Alltrac

And No, I don't steal cars and strip them - thats a job much better suited to a plasma cutter than standard tools

[Jesse IL]

So basically you quoted the time of a professional, experienced mechanic who has done the job before multiple times, with $250 cordless impact tools

My method includes a good deal of time of me crawling around a very cramped garage with a really shiety floor that is difficult to set jack stands up on due to all the craters in it. I do it all with hand tools and due to the number of steps involved and the number of times I've done the job (two), I end up having to stop several times and think through the process in my head. I typically bag all the fasteners in numerous ziploc bags in order that I can easily remember where they all go when it goes back together. None of the work is difficult, I just find it tedious and time consuming to do it in a manner that I know will result in everything back where it should be and no "extra parts".

As someone who has worked on the engine with it both in and out of the car (I installed the ProDrive oil pump with the engine in the car), I feel that for the average recreational garage mechanic, with an average set of tools, minimizing the number of steps makes for a less time consuming repair.

As much as you can't fathom that removing an engine to change the head would take me at least twice as long as leaving the engine in the car, I can't fathom how someone who can remove an engine so fast would struggle so badly with a header? Back when I pulled my Trial, nothing had been on long enough to rust into place. I think I did that in under two hours with all hand tools. And yeah, if a header gets you that bad, you wouldn't even want to think about pulling the front cover off the engine with it in the car.

[Boosted2.0]

Originally Posted by Jesse IL

So basically you quoted the time of a professional, experienced mechanic who has done the job before multiple times, with $250 cordless impact tools

My method includes a good deal of time of me crawling around a very cramped garage with a really shiety floor that is difficult to set jack stands up on due to all the craters in it. I do it all with hand tools and due to the number of steps involved and the number of times I've done the job (two), I end up having to stop several times and think through the process in my head. I typically bag all the fasteners in numerous ziploc bags in order that I can easily remember where they all go when it goes back together. None of the work is difficult, I just find it tedious and time consuming to do it in a manner that I know will result in everything back where it should be and no "extra parts".

As someone who has worked on the engine with it both in and out of the car (I installed the ProDrive oil pump with the engine in the car), I feel that for the average recreational garage mechanic, with an average set of tools, minimizing the number of steps makes for a less time consuming repair.

As much as you can't fathom that removing an engine to change the head would take me at least twice as long as leaving the engine in the car, I can't fathom how someone who can remove an engine so fast would struggle so badly with a header? Back when I pulled my Trial, nothing had been on long enough to rust into place. I think I did that in under two hours with all hand tools. And yeah, if a header gets you that bad, you wouldn't even want to think about pulling the front cover off the engine with it in the car.

Well yeah - I told you how long it takes ME. Smaay is kind of in the same boat just because hes had to pull so many motors.

Oh I can pull a Trial thats only been on a short time in well under 2 hours. But removing and replacing a stock header with all heat shields in place that has never been off the car before is another story alltogether.

Plus I pull them out the top so I don;t have to fuss with the axle and having to add trans fluid which adds a bit of time I guess.

Plus I'm factoring in for cooldown time, jack up time, removing midpipe, etc etc etc

Whats cool is you don't have to do any of that for pulling the motor - you can leave the header on. and the intake. and the alternator. and the belt tensioner. All that stuff. Its just easier.

If you saw me pull one once you would agree.

[Jesse IL]

Originally Posted by Boosted2.0

Plus I pull them out the top so I don;t have to fuss with the axle and having to add trans fluid which adds a bit of time I guess.

Whats cool is you don't have to do any of that for pulling the motor - you can leave the header on.

If you saw me pull one once you would agree.

Odd. I pull the header out the back, down the exhaust tunnel.

As far as leaving the header on, yes that's a very nice feature. With a downpipe...different story. Smaay ripped the A/C system out of his car, which means he can go straight out with the motor. When I followed his suggestion, the downpipe hung up, then levered so hard on the turbo that it cracked the manifold Getting those damn lock nuts off the downpipe is one of the worst parts of the job. Next time, I'm going to remove the turbo and downpipe as a unit, since separating the turbo from the manifold should be significantly easier.

[Boosted2.0]

Originally Posted by Jesse IL

Odd. I pull the header out the back, down the exhaust tunnel.

As far as leaving the header on, yes that's a very nice feature. With a downpipe...different story. Smaay ripped the A/C system out of his car, which means he can go straight out with the motor. When I followed his suggestion, the downpipe hung up, then levered so hard on the turbo that it cracked the manifold Getting those damn lock nuts off the downpipe is one of the worst parts of the job. Next time, I'm going to remove the turbo and downpipe as a unit, since separating the turbo from the manifold should be significantly easier.

I've pulled turbo motors with the turbo and DP on but that was the SF kit - dunno whats different on yours.

Do you have an adjustable spreader bar for your engine hoist? I consider that an essential tool for engine removal.

I ought to spend a day taking pictures of some of my tools and explaining why they are a good idea.

[Jesse IL]

Originally Posted by Boosted2.0

I've pulled turbo motors with the turbo and DP on but that was the SF kit - dunno whats different on yours.

The DP extends too far down the exhaust tunnel. With the A/C condensor in place, you can't bring the engine far enough forward for the DP to clear. You have no choice but to remove it, although it would be significantly easier to get at the four bolts holding the turbo on and just pull the turbo/DP straight back out the tunnel and leave the manifold on the engine.

Originally Posted by Boosted2.0

Do you have an adjustable spreader bar for your engine hoist? I consider that an essential tool for engine removal.

I don't even have an engine hoist. I rented one the first time I did the job, then the second time I found out a guy a play hockey with has one (he owns an auto parts store). No spreader bar, although having the Toyota engine hooks makes the job pretty easy with just the chains. The only real challenge I had without the spreader bar is that when you go to put the engine back in, its easy to have the whole engine cocked relative to the motor mounts. I had to have a friend operate the hoist while I messed with the engine and got the bolts started.

Originally Posted by Boosted2.0

I ought to spend a day taking pictures of some of my tools and explaining why they are a good idea.

That would be a good idea. I already feel that I have better/more useful tools than almost anyone I know who isn't a professional mechanic. I'm not against the idea of buying more tools as long as I feel I will get a good amount of use out of them for the price, or the price is low enough that extremely limited use isn't a concern. As someone who doesn't do this for my livelihood, there are many tools I don't own that I simply can't justify based on the cost and the genuine possibility that they might get used once or twice. For the same reason I don't give or value advice on custom turbo kits based on unlimited budgets, I feel that recommending someone go buy a bunch of specialized tools and equipment to pull an engine is misguided. The reason people do their own work is to save money afterall. That's why I think that, despite the difficulty of working on the engine with the block installed, for most people on this site with average DIY'er tools, it would be a more cost effective option.

[slvrcelicagt00]

so there is still no record of failing rods due to hp?

[Boosted2.0]

Originally Posted by slvrcelicagt00

so there is still no record of failing rods due to hp?

There were a few back in the day.

[the ronin]

Originally Posted by slvrcelicagt00

so there is still no record of failing rods due to hp?

Lotus motor sports had rod failure with 350bph>310rwhp..this car has to have 350hp for the entire race not just 12sec.