2013 Toyota 86 / Scion FR-S / Subaru BRZ

[Motor]

Toyota/Subaru Lightweight Sports Car

Best Car Scoop - A few weeks ago on September 3rd, Daily Car Newspaper (Japan) reported on an interview with Toyota President Katsuaki Watanabe and his announcement of a joint Toyota-Subaru ‘Entry Level Sports Car’ which is underway and in it’s initial development phase, with a test mule spotted on a test course at Toyota’s headquarters in Toyota City.

The Test Mule

The test mule is actually still very early in it’s development and in its experimental stage being based on a shortened Subaru Legacy chassis and running a SOHC 2.0L flat-four engine. Best Car isn’t aware of any wheelbase measurements at this time, but going by reports the test mule chassis is around 200mm shorter than it’s Legacy donor platform. The Legacy underpinnings are for experimental purposes only as the new Toyota Lightweight Sports Car will actually be based on a shortened Impreza 15S platform which is better suited to a smaller 1.5 - 2.0L (flat-four) engine and has ‘rear wheel drive friendly’ double wishbone rear suspension. The test mule is in very early stages with the car running the aforementioned 2.0L SOHC engine and a 4WD driveline (without front drive shafts) so it isn’t undergoing any serious performance driving tests at this point in time. Apparently Toyota has the ability to have this new lightweight sports car ready and on the market by the end of next year… if only they were so inclined. Instead, a lot of effort is being put into getting the most performance while keeping the retail price below 2,000,000 yen.

Why a 1.5L engine?

Price seems to be the limiting factor regarding the type of engine, and therefore total weight, of the Toyota Lightweight Sports Car. Best Car has been told that if a larger 2.0L engine were to be used, the cost of the car would definitely rise above the 2,000,000 yen limit and would then not live up to its ‘Entry Level Sports Car’ namesake. Also the rear differential sourced from Subaru (from the Impreza 15S) has been cited as a weak link, it being limited to engines of 2.0L capacity or under for reliability concerns. The 1.5L engine - named ‘EL15′ - is a DOHC flat-four powerplant and is also noted for producing less emissions than it’s larger SOHC sibling which is another important criteria that Toyota is trying to address. The EL15 only puts out 110ps @ 6,400rpm and 14.7kg/m @ 3,200rpm so Toyota is doing its best to lighten the chassis and body as much as possible in order to give the car a reasonable amount of performance. Just how much weight can be shed? Toyota is aiming for 1100kg and no more… this is another reason why the 2.0L engine was rejected as the larger engine would dictate a heavier chassis which in turn would exceed the 1100kg (total vehicle) weight limit by 100kg or more, even with considerable weight reduction. Only so much weight can be shed, and only so much can be done to keep the Lightweight Sports Car within the 2,000,000 yen limit so Toyota has a big job on its hands to address these issues and will certainly be an ongoing problem throughout the development cycle.

Possible WRC Challenger?

Best Car hints at a possible WRC challenger in the making! Toyota could easily use Subaru STi engines and 4WD chassis together with the lightweight FR body for an assault on the World Rally Championship. This is just wishful thinking at this stage but Best Car sees no reason why this wouldn’t be a possibility.

Toyobaru or Subayota?

[marc]

I'd be very interested in an incredibly light vehicle that can accept "big brother" Subaru turbo boxer engine swaps.

[Red Falcon]

2.5L STi swap.

[GTsRasta]

Nowadays, "light weight" is going to not be that light.

A 1.5 Liter engine in a (my guess) 2,500 lb car...BLAH. They should've had it with the 1.8 Liter duel VVT-i turd that's in Toyotas now so that we can swap in a 2zz.

If it doesn't make at least 150 hp for a 100 hp per liter ratio like our cars...then it will be a total waste.

But if the STI engine can really go in there...

[Zenith]

2mil yen by today's standards in 17.3k

depending on how everything ends up i could see this being the next srt4. I know if most of what they're talking about is true i'd definately pick one up for a DD and may be another to play with... who knows. at this stage of the game i like it... a LOT.

[Zenith]

rasta, it is VERY hard to make a car under 1k kg that is still crashworthy to any extent. also 1100kg is their UPPER limit. and it'd be economy sports a lot like the celica, save it'll be rwd so it can more easily be called sports as opposed to sporty.

[Red Falcon]

Originally Posted by GTsRasta

Nowadays, "light weight" is going to not be that light.

A 1.5 Liter engine in a (my guess) 2,500 lb car...BLAH. They should've had it with the 1.8 Liter duel VVT-i turd that's in Toyotas now so that we can swap in a 2zz.

If it doesn't make at least 150 hp for a 100 hp per liter ratio like our cars...then it will be a total waste.

But if the STI engine can really go in there...

The exact number is 2420. That's not bad at all considering this is an entry level car. This could be the next car I buy.

[GTsRasta]

Valid points.

Considering that manual transmission Celicas are right under 2,500 lbs, MR2-Spyders are 2,200 lbs, and Lotus's are near 2,000 lbs...2,500+ still seems heavy...but to today's standard's that's freakin light as hell...and especially if it's going to have a driveshaft.

[neological]

Why don't they just call it a celica.

[GTsRasta]

Because the Celica transformed into a Integra GSR, FWD econobox rival .

But it would be a nice throwback, especially since everybody's drooling over the new FT-HS to be called the next Supra.

Toyota would definetally solve it's sport car market gap with these two new Celicas and Supras just fine, and make the emission Nazis of the world happy...or at least for another 7 years until they decide to choke emissions even more...

[Zenith]

That would make it a nice throwback. I'd enjoy it that much more to be honest. I must say I've grown rather fond of my 7th gen; even if sometimes it leaves me restless for something more and new.

Although emissions are getting extreme hard to meet for motor companies, only extreme ingenuity in both materials and design are allowing them to keep up. Also with new fleet mpg laws it'll be even harder to keep up with the demanded improvements. It seems that the eco people are managing to put up enough laws to actually manage to possibly phase out the internal combustion engine possibly within our lifetimes (assuming oil technology improvements allow it to last that long)

[Red Falcon]

Originally Posted by neological

Why don't they just call it a celica.

Then people will think its a slow FWD econo box. **EDIT** Well actually with a 1.5L it will be slow but With an STi swap all of the torque and hp problems will go away.

On another note, hopefully this car will get some sweet TRD goodies as well.

[Zenith]

Originally Posted by Red Falcon

Then people will think its a slow FWD econo box.

On another note, hopefully this car will get some sweet TRD goodies as well.

It'll never happen but it's be very sweet if trd made some staged upgrades like with the srt4... wait... nm... scratch that. Thankfully that'll never happen

[jlitman]

Originally Posted by neological

Why don't they just call it a celica.

x2

It seems to take some stylistic cues from the Celica. If the FT-HS never comes out, this is almost definitely my next car.

With a little bit of love and some TRD options, I think we have a winnah!

But 14.7 kg/m is like, what 100 lb/ft of torque? This car needs a motor swap or turbo like nobody's business.

[Punkers7465]

Originally Posted by Motor

I hope it doesn't look like that.

I like the way the last picture looks

[bps1804]

Originally Posted by jlitman

It seems to take some stylistic cues from the Celica. If the FT-HS never comes out, this is almost definitely my next car.

If the FT-HS never comes out? This car is going to cost around $17k, half as much as the FT-HS is predicted to be.

I would think that if you had $35k set aside for a car, you could do better than this (Evo, STi, S2k, C6 'vette...hell even save another 5k for an Elise).


Unless you're just looking for a DD to get you from A to B. Even then, the FT-HS is spec'd at 25mpg.

[Red Falcon]

The biggest question on everyone's mind:
Will the new headlights be indestructible?

[Zenith]

don't forget the driver and passenger side windows

[jlitman]

Originally Posted by bps1804

If the FT-HS never comes out? This car is going to cost around $17k, half as much as the FT-HS is predicted to be.

I would think that if you had $35k set aside for a car, you could do better than this (Evo, STi, S2k, C6 'vette...hell even save another 5k for an Elise).


Unless you're just looking for a DD to get you from A to B. Even then, the FT-HS is spec'd at 25mpg.

Your interest in my plans for future car purchases is flattering -- Paypal me $42 and I'll explain everything

[bps1804]

Originally Posted by jlitman

Your interest in my plans for future car purchases is flattering -- Paypal me $42 and I'll explain everything

Sorry dude. I wasn't trying to criticize you on anything, just my thoughts on the matter.

[atrac7GTS]

doesn't look THAT bad, i think the wheel wells are flared out a bit too much though, i would consider buying this car as a DD, with still being able to put a little bit here and there into it along the way, but hell, i'm tired of seeing all these "upcoming" pics of future toyotas, let's get them rolling already...and THUMBS down for the part that says "target group: europe"

[GSBoek]

This is the kind of thread I enjoy, devoid of needless flamewars LOL

I can dig the thing, styling doesn't offend and it's RWD.

[Gas-n-Grease]

mixed feelings on how the concept looks. although it resembles the tC, it looks better probably less pudgy. 110hp EL15 doesn't bother me though... i'm just glad to hear Toyota is making a cheap rwd. Just sucks that they're aiming towards the european group.

[tigerjj85]

possibly next gen tC? or some other named Scion

[Zenith]

perhaps it'll have different engine options in the u.s. if it makes it here. it is after all very common for that to happen.

[jlitman]

Originally Posted by Zenith

perhaps it'll have different engine options in the u.s. if it makes it here. it is after all very common for that to happen.

Well, franky, even a 1ZZ or the scion engine (what the hell is its code...? I can't remember) would be a HUGE upgrade over that 1.5 engine they intend to put in there.

Basically, it will weigh as much as a GT, but have considerably less torque and power. We're not exactly talking a rocket here. This car needs some help to get moving. Hopefully, it will have awesome handling, though.

The fact that the rear differential is described as the "weak link" is worrisome... that may mean if you add FI you need to replace the dif as well.

[Zenith]

Originally Posted by jlitman

Well, franky, even a 1ZZ or the scion engine (what the hell is its code...? I can't remember) would be a HUGE upgrade over that 1.5 engine they intend to put in there.

Basically, it will weigh as much as a GT, but have considerably less torque and power. We're not exactly talking a rocket here. This car needs some help to get moving. Hopefully, it will have awesome handling, though.

The fact that the rear differential is described as the "weak link" is worrisome... that may mean if you add FI you need to replace the dif as well.

It will however have rwd. The 240sx while having a pos (power wise) motor could still do some extremely difficult things for a novice to even try (deffinately a car one can grow with). Also, since it seems like they're trying to make it a parts bin car it should have some compatible existing swaps. Especially if it is a subby rear diff.

IMO I would be disappointed with a Tc motor. There is decent power down low but it falls on it's face in the upper rpm. At least that's my experiance from driving a Tc. A new version of the 2zz would be ideal (imo) if it had the proper gearing and a box that wasn't fragile.

Honestly, I would enjoy an old ca18det. Reguardless I think it will be very interesting to see how they pull off a small motor entry level "sports" rwd. Especially considering most a to b cars are rather quick now.

edit-- did a bit of checking, apparently subby likes to use the r160 and r180 rear diffs which are upgradable to r200 (silvia diff) which with some more mods is upgradable to the r230 (z32 fairlady z) if they go with one of those, and i suspect they will it shouldn't be to big a deal, a simple junkyard visit away or about $200 for viscous lsd

[Nineball]

My theory right now stands as such...

RWD toyotaru = Scion badged ae-86 ******* child
FT-HS = Toyota badged celica revival
LF-A = Lexus badged supra offspring

Good to hear this all, though. I foresee easy engine swaps and AWD swaps in plentiful numbers. It'll win back the hearts of all the poor-toyota fans and breed a new generation of Toyo-fanboys... hopefully.

[TRD1zz00GT]

Meh...It looks like a Scion to me.

1.5...we suck again.

I'm tired of seeing Toyota building cars w/ accessories. We offer a S/C for 4K installed!

Don't want to engine swap, or have to pull the motor to beef the insides.

I want a pocket rocket, that people walk up to and ask, "So what'cha ya done!?"
Welp I put gas in it, I start it, and I...drive it.

Start building the reputation of a solid motor like the 4G/2JZA/RB/SR.

Just pull what the dodge or cheeby boys did w/ the SRT or SS cobalt cept' make it right way wheel drive and call it a day.

Don't think it's that hard to build a 2 door coupe/right way drive/ S/C or Turbo/ Ton of factory backed go-fass parts. Especially with the help of Scoobaru.

220HP+ stock. Plenty for the masses, but plenty of room to expand on since the motor is built for boost.

IMO they would make a killing in the 16-25yr old age group.

Think about if the 7th gen was set up like a all-trac? SERIOUSLY.

Killer looks, great handling, AWD, and plenty of power with room to expand.

They're killing in sales right meow, take a chance and build something everyone wants.

Who cares if it's Scion or Yota. Wake up the testosterone and bring back the days of yore!

Instead of building something sub-par, for the masses, and just "enough".

Sidenote--->>Quit with the whole "read only" ECU's too. I'm quite jealous of everyone else having access to tune the ECU, but us.

[peeper06]

It doesn't look too bad. Looks like a tC/new eclipse.

[marc]

Originally Posted by TRD1zz00GT

Meh...It looks like a Scion to me.

1.5...we suck again.

I'm tired of seeing Toyota building cars w/ accessories. We offer a S/C for 4K installed!

Don't want to engine swap, or have to pull the motor to beef the insides.

I want a pocket rocket, that people walk up to and ask, "So what'cha ya done!?"
Welp I put gas in it, I start it, and I...drive it.

Start building the reputation of a solid motor like the 4G/2JZA/RB/SR.

Just pull what the dodge or cheeby boys did w/ the SRT or SS cobalt cept' make it right way wheel drive and call it a day.

Don't think it's that hard to build a 2 door coupe/right way drive/ S/C or Turbo/ Ton of factory backed go-fass parts. Especially with the help of Scoobaru.

220HP+ stock. Plenty for the masses, but plenty of room to expand on since the motor is built for boost.

IMO they would make a killing in the 16-25yr old age group.

Think about if the 7th gen was set up like a all-trac? SERIOUSLY.

Killer looks, great handling, AWD, and plenty of power with room to expand.

They're killing in sales right meow, take a chance and build something everyone wants.

Who cares if it's Scion or Yota. Wake up the testosterone and bring back the days of yore!

Instead of building something sub-par, for the masses, and just "enough".

Sidenote--->>Quit with the whole "read only" ECU's too. I'm quite jealous of everyone else having access to tune the ECU, but us.

you clearly have no concept of how Toyota has achieved world domination, sells cars, or conducts marketing

[neological]

Originally Posted by TRD1zz00GT

Meh...It looks like a Scion to me.

1.5...we suck again.

I'm tired of seeing Toyota building cars w/ accessories. We offer a S/C for 4K installed!

Don't want to engine swap, or have to pull the motor to beef the insides.

I want a pocket rocket, that people walk up to and ask, "So what'cha ya done!?"
Welp I put gas in it, I start it, and I...drive it.

Start building the reputation of a solid motor like the 4G/2JZA/RB/SR.

Just pull what the dodge or cheeby boys did w/ the SRT or SS cobalt cept' make it right way wheel drive and call it a day.

Don't think it's that hard to build a 2 door coupe/right way drive/ S/C or Turbo/ Ton of factory backed go-fass parts. Especially with the help of Scoobaru.

220HP+ stock. Plenty for the masses, but plenty of room to expand on since the motor is built for boost.

IMO they would make a killing in the 16-25yr old age group.

Think about if the 7th gen was set up like a all-trac? SERIOUSLY.

Killer looks, great handling, AWD, and plenty of power with room to expand.

They're killing in sales right meow, take a chance and build something everyone wants.

Who cares if it's Scion or Yota. Wake up the testosterone and bring back the days of yore!

Instead of building something sub-par, for the masses, and just "enough".

Sidenote--->>Quit with the whole "read only" ECU's too. I'm quite jealous of everyone else having access to tune the ECU, but us.

What you're describing is basically a WRX.

[Barabaika]

Originally Posted by neological

What you're describing is basically a WRX.

Which nobody buys in Europe!

At the same time, Subaru wants to increase its sales in Europe using the rebadged Daihatsu model.
http://star-motoring.com/news/story....&sec=motornews

[QUOTE]The new front-wheel drive Justy is positioned as an entry-level car in Subaru

[TRD1zz00GT]

Originally Posted by neological

What you're describing is basically a WRX.

Yup, Yup.

Scooby did it with the WRX.

Mazda did it with the Speed 3.

Should be no reason Yota can't build something in same price/powa range.

[esper]

Originally Posted by Barabaika

Which nobody buys in Europe!

At the same time, Subaru wants to increase its sales in Europe using the rebadged Daihatsu model.
http://star-motoring.com/news/story....&sec=motornews

sadly the new impreza was designed specifically to improve sales in europe. Which explains a lot

[marc]

Originally Posted by esper

sadly the new impreza was designed specifically to improve sales in europe. Which explains a lot

and in doing so, they alienated buyers such as myself

[esper]

Originally Posted by marc

and in doing so, they alienated buyers such as myself

sad but true, I predicted this but its unfortunate. Also reminds people that naysayers in the performance car world have jack to do with what sells and makes money.

Although toyota fans should know exactly how that feels.

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/st...4674533&EDATE=

Subaru September Sales Reach 20-Year High
- Subaru Impreza sales lead the way with best September ever -

CHERRY HILL, N.J., Oct. 2 /PRNewswire/ -- Subaru of America, Inc. today reported its best September sales in 20 years with a total of 16,457 units, up two percent from the same period last year. Sales of the all-new 2008 Subaru Impreza lead the way by posting the line's best September sales total in the company's history.

"September was our first full month of sales for the new 2008 Subaru Impreza," said Tim Colbeck, vice president of sales, Subaru of America, Inc. "The market has responded with enthusiasm to the new product and we see this trend continuing through the end of the year."

Subaru Tribeca sales were up 19 percent with 1,730 units in September. Also up for the month were sales of the Subaru Legacy that recorded sales of 6,777 units, a 5 percent increase over last year. The Subaru Outback accounted for 4,796 sales units of the Legacy line total. Subaru Forester recorded a September total of 3,746 units, while the Subaru Impreza was up 11 percent with a September record of 4,195 units for the month. The discontinued Subaru Baja also recorded 9 units in September.

For a complete sales chart and additional information about Subaru of America, Inc. and Subaru vehicles, visit our media website at http://www.media.subaru.com.

About Subaru of America, Inc.

Subaru of America, Inc. is a wholly owned subsidiary of Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd. of Japan. Headquartered in Cherry Hill, N.J., the company markets and distributes Subaru Symmetrical All-Wheel Drive vehicles, parts and accessories through a network of more than 600 dealers across the United States. Subaru makes the best-selling All-Wheel Drive car sold in America based on R.L. Polk & Co. new vehicle retail registration statistics. For additional information visit http://www.subaru.com.

[Gravel]

Originally Posted by Barabaika

Which nobody buys in Europe!

There seem to be a shed load of WRX's being driven by half-wits on UK roads, despite the fact they are pig-ugly and thirstier than Amy Winehouse!

Gas prices in Europe:
http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lis...bal_gasprices/
United Kingdom London $5.79

I wish - it's

[jlitman]

[QUOTE=Gravel]

Originally Posted by Barabaika

Which nobody buys in Europe!

There seem to be a shed load of WRX's being driven by half-wits on UK roads, despite the fact they are pig-ugly and thirstier than Amy Winehouse!

Gas prices in Europe:
http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lis...bal_gasprices/
United Kingdom London $5.79

I wish - it's

[neological]

Originally Posted by Gravel

There seem to be a shed load of WRX's being driven by half-wits on UK roads, despite the fact they are pig-ugly and thirstier than Amy Winehouse!

Corny? Yes.

Did I laugh? Yes.

[TRD1zz00GT]

Ever since Toyota started riding Subaru, we'd heard the rumors. Supposedly, that sketch right there

[neological]

Beyond speculative.

I would think the artists Toyota/Subaru would hire would have a better grasp of 3 point perspective.

[Motor]

[Carbonized_GT]

Ok Cego.

[GSBoek]

^lol

[Gas-n-Grease]

svx??

[party2go]

Originally Posted by Gas-n-Grease

svx??

That was horrid example of a "sports car." If it were, most people would be glad they got rid of that horizontal inline 6.

[Beast]

What's with the center exhaust? How are ricers going to put their coffee can/angled exhausts on?

[TRD1zz00GT]

Update: Car is confirmed...2010,2011

From Jalopnik

Yesterday we showed you a concept sketch of an alleged coupe to be made by a Subaru-Toyota partnership. Scratch the "alleged" as we now have official confirmation in the form of an official statement from Toyota CEO Katsuaki "Ken" Watanabe:

The compact rear-wheel drive sports car is envisioned to offer a new 'fun to drive' experience based on an all-new vehicle platform."

In addition we're told production will start in 2010, and Subaru's boxer four-cylinder engines will be used. The RWD Subie sports car should be available in late 2010, with the Toyota coming a few months afterwards in early 2011.

No names have been given for the two new vehicles, though the fan-boy forums are abuzz with rumors like "Subaru Impreza Coupe" or "New Toyota Supra." Both valid options and ideas. We guess we'll have to wait a year or so. Although the last drop of information wrung from Ken today was that the two new cars will be made at a new Subaru factory in Gunma, Japan. Although that facility hasn't yet been built. All of this comes on news Toyota confirmed that it's increasing its ownership stake in Subaru's parent company, Fuji Heavy Industries, from 8.7% to 16.5%. What a day, eh? [AutoCar, MotorAuthority, Automotive News]

[neological]

That's like the umpteenth confirmation that they're actually making the car. We know this.

Thanks for the scoop.