Greddy F-manage?!

[jlitman]

There seems to be a new Greddy tuning device -- the F-manage

It appears to provide a way to fool the ECU into thinking it's running at stoich in closed loop and allows you to dial in any AFR you want!

Here's the babel fish link with Engrish translation...

http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate...rUrl=Translate

Here's another translation

http://translate.google.com/translat...3DG%26pwst%3D1

Anyone able to translate this better?

Here's more info, but I can't read or translate any of it it...

[jcanracer]

Shame on greddy, this kinda looks rice-tastic

[jlitman]

Huh? Why do you say that?

If this allows you to fool the O2 sensor into using a different AFR as the target value in closed loop, that would be pretty awesome for those of us without a stand alone.

[ikhaffaji]

I thought the title was a typo. Regardless, this looks really cool and it should be a viable solution to tune with.

[jlitman]

^^^ I thought at first glance too -- Sounds like a gag -- the F-U-manage

[zuoom]

there's actually been devices that does what greddy F-manage is doing.

alternatively, people have been tricking the ECU to think open loop all the time n forgo the close loop.

[jcanracer]

here's my next question...stock O2 sensor isn't exactly a wideband, so how accurate would it be if you simply plugged in a target value without changing to an aftermarket O2 sensor?

[zuoom]

there's nothing to be accurate.

the Fmanage just tricks the computer to think the supposedly AF it wants to see. while the true AF is another figure. this is to keep the stock ECU happy while the Emanage is at work. end result: no extreme fuel trims.

[jlitman]

Originally Posted by jcanracer

here's my next question...stock O2 sensor isn't exactly a wideband, so how accurate would it be if you simply plugged in a target value without changing to an aftermarket O2 sensor?

Well, that's a good question.

I'm not really sure exactly how it works (or how well it works!), but my guess is it can match a narrowband frequency to a given AFR, and then spoofs a signal that matches the voltage the ECU is looking for so the ECU thinks it's hovering at stoich as always.

Basically, it's a "signal conditioner" that has the added advantage of being synced up to the emanage ultimate for tuning -- that's pretty cool!

The only problem I can see is that narrowband sensors don't have great resolution. However, if the F-manage can compute the new voltage accurately enough and process the info fast enough, I don't see why it wouldn't work.

Actually, I just had a look at the UEGO booklet, and it shows a narrowband voltage that corresponds to each wideband voltage, so -- this should totally work! The only issue is processing speed. If it can process the info as fast as the ECU, this should work like a charm.

For example, according to AEM, .8 volts = a narrow band equivalent of a 13:1 AFR. All the F-manage needs to do is tell the ECU that .8 v = .45 v (narrowband 14.7) and there you have it -- a new closed loop AFR!

[CalPencil]

ACtually, if anyone is understand the HHO generator problem thread... then this is good for that too. Basically, when you start adding HHO into the system, the mixture at the O2 sensor gets a little messed up.

When using HHO, the car actually starts providing more fuel to burn, in order to counter balance the O2 level on the exhaust end. Having a device like this, actually helps regulate the voltage readings back to the ECU.

You wouldn't have to build an EFIE....

[5_Leaf_Clover]

Does this mean the ecu will operate in closed loop at all any more? If it thinks its sitting pretty at 14.7, it won't bother trying to do the necessary STFT adjustments. Infact the STFTs are useful corrections, its its big brother, the LTFTs, that cause havoc with a good tune.

In that case, would the 16x16 grid of the emanage ult be fine enough for this (semi) standalone type tune?

[jlitman]

Originally Posted by 5_Leaf_Clover

Does this mean the ecu will operate in closed loop at all any more? If it thinks its sitting pretty at 14.7, it won't bother trying to do the necessary STFT adjustments. Infact the STFTs are useful corrections, its its big brother, the LTFTs, that cause havoc with a good tune.

In that case, would the 16x16 grid of the emanage ult be fine enough for this (semi) standalone type tune?

Probably not -- it will just create fuel trims around the new AFR.

You'd still need to dial out fuel trims, but they could be greatly minimized because you could target a more desirable AFR.

Accordingly, this would most likely allow one to completely eliminate any cold enrichment problems.

Also on a FI car, going from, say, 13.5 at idle to 12.0 in boost is less of a transition than going from 14.7.

[GTsRasta]

It seems like it's on sale already...

http://www.google.com/product_url?q=...hl=en&sa=title

[jlitman]

^^^ Yeesh... $500 for the unit plus A/F sensor adapter... I'll pass for now.

Thanks for posting that though -- well spotted.

[jtweezy]

So will it control Lift engagement point?

[jlitman]

Um... no. See first post for what it does.

[marc]

wow - setting a target AFR and forgetting would be ****ing nice for us lazy ass people like myself.

[Gravel]

I still can't understand why Greddy don't just produce a proper standalone version of the Ultimate

The Ultimate already intercepts the injector and spark signals, why the frick can't it just fire them when it wants regardless of what the ECU is trying (obviously it'd need crank position or such like)

They could then just provide a couple of black stickers to go over the CEL lights and you'd be laughing

[Gravel]

Originally Posted by jlitman

^^^ Yeesh... $500 for the unit plus A/F sensor adapter... I'll pass for now.

Thanks for posting that though -- well spotted.

You might also want to let some other poor bugger do Greddy's beta-testing/quality-control fist - it seems to take them about 5 PCB revs to get anything right

[jlitman]

Marc,

You'd still need the emanage ultimate (EMU) for spark and open loop fueling -- the F-manage appears to exert its influence in closed loop only. However, you can indeed create a target map controlled by the wideband with the EMU -- I do that now, and it works pretty well.

Gravel,

they are definitely ready to shoehorn the Ulitmate E, V, and F into one metal box. I'm sure that will be the next unit in due course.

Okay, I am a fvcking idiot -- how the hell does the multiquote function work? Grrr...

[GTsRasta]

Originally Posted by jlitman

Okay, I am a fvcking idiot -- how the hell does the multiquote function work? Grrr...

x2...

But what you also have to realize is that the e-manage ultimate + v-manage + f-manage combination is the cheapest route to coming close to standalone ECU territory. For UNDER $1500, you will have this OBD-II compliant setup that's only an additional $150 away from adding in a MAP sensor and MAP sensor harness to run MAP tuning, just like the high end standalone ECU's (Hydra and AEM). In case you guys haven't noticed...the PWND dollar rose up the damn price of the PFC...unfortunately making the Boosted2.0 DBW PFC Harness + Apexi Power FC Standalone ECU + Datalogit Software route MUCH more expensive. It's so expensive, that the Hydra standalone ECU is now the middle ground! Here's the rundown:

$1600 - $1650 = E-Manage Ultimate + V-Manage + F-Manage + MAP Sensor + MAP sensor harness
$1700 = Hydra Standalone ECU
$1870 = Apexi Power FC + Boosted2.0 DBW PFC Harness + PFC Datalogit

One option is totally OBD-II compliant, another one comes with MAP tuning and is more advanced than the MAF based ones, and the final option has the most tuner base and basemaps to share MAPS with. At this point, if I wasn't already going to stay with the greddy route, I'd go with the Hydra, but when it comes to those damn Lotus DBW people, they only have the $3,400 EFI that needs an additional $1000 to make it idle right...

[jlitman]

You're preaching to the choir on this one.

The only way I'd toss the Greddy at this point is if a fully tunable toyota ECU suddenly became available (I recently thought of another sneaky way to accomplish this, but so far nothing to report... hint, GM ECU's are reflashable, and there are at least two amazingly user friendly tuning/reflash packages available...).

[GTsRasta]

I have a buddy who works in the electrical engineering industry, and who tried to gauge interest on lotustalk.com through dustylax to see about having his company work on the Lotus ECU and maybe see about sending an ECU over to India so his company can take advantage of some cheap outsourced labor, give those smart ass Indian people a challenge, crack the ECU, and create software to rewrite everything. Unfortunately...there wasn't that much interest in lotustalk.com to get this work done...much less have it done for himself...so that didn't bear to fruit.

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f171...control-52978/

I can only imagine the Celica community will be just as bad...

[jlitman]

The easiest way would be to convince the EFI Live or VCM Suite/HP Tuner guys to add the Vibe and Vibe GT to their compatible vehicles list... can we say toss the PFC and its ilk in the garbage?

Auto guys like me would still need to wire the Vibe ECU in parallel, but the GM tuning/reflashing packages are waaaaaay better than any of the stand alone aftermarket ECUs.

That's assuming, of course, that the Vibe and Vibe GT don't just use rebadged Denso ECU's -- then it may not be possible to add them to their list, even if they are reflashable... of this I am unsure...

[GTsRasta]

I would assume GM wouldn't touch the ECU due to them wanting a car that can actually hold a resale value...sounds like a good investigation plan though...

And look at the crazies up at 3:30 AM thinking of these plans...nice thinking though! Even though it's a long shot...

[hotshot2101]

Originally Posted by jlitman

that the Vibe and Vibe GT don't just use rebadged Denso ECU's

people should look into it, heck if it actully is reflasable we would be having more built cars and motors as tunning would be cheaper

[jlitman]

I have a bad feeling that I'm not actually the first person to think of this, and that it can't be done...

I'll poke around on the Vibe boards to see if anyone thought of this before.

[zuoom]

ever considered the Links G3?
http://newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=264640

did a couple of emails with the guys who did the product. they mentioned it can be used to tune the engine. (while leaving the shifting, aircon etc to the stock ECU.)

[GTsRasta]

Lookey lookey what's on sale

$591.65: http://www.rhdjapan.com/jdm-low/TRUS...-Harness-54128

TRUST GReddy F-Manage Main Unit Sensor Set 2.5m Harness
NOW ON SALE
You are viewing a brand new GReddy F-Manage Main Unit with the Sensor Set and 2.5 meter harness by one of the most innovative in all performance, TRUST/GReddy.

The GReddy F-Manage is a also known as the feedback control manager. It can be used in conjunction with the E-Manage from GReddy to more accurately tune the air/fuel ratio. This will lead to increases in horsepower and a cleaner burn. Feedback is given that is essential for tuning the finer points of your engine. Most beneficial on supercharged and turbocharged vehicles.

Included are the following:

-F-Manage Main Unit
-USB Cable
-CD-ROM
-Sensor Kit
-2.5 meter harness kit

I think after I learn how to tune over the winter, I might pick this up...might have to start up another business other than serving old people food to fund my new habit...

[hombredelassrta]

going to need to make a custom basket setup to hold all 3 units. like a mini amp rack