TVS supercharger

[gtsjoe89]

Hi, im new here and heard that the lotus guys have been using the new TVS supercharger and was wondering if anyone has tried one and if theres a kit for a celicas or if u could just buy the TVS charger from the lotus guys and be a direct bolt on? sorry if im being a newb. i tried doing a search and couldnt find much. thanks

[Gtsjeg04]

Dont know, but I would assume the brackets wont work with the A/C like on every other kit for the lotus.

[ikhaffaji]

As he said, brackets probably won't work. However, it'll probably bolt on, but you'd have to custom fabricate some things.

[yodaddyguido]

how much does the kit run? i work in a machine shop, brackets = cake

[jtweezy]

can somebody make the manifold for the TVS supercharger?

I found the supercharger for $1600

[hombredelassrta]

the manifold isnt the problem as i think boe already has the adapter for it to fit the greddy manifold. the issue is it shifts the supercharger abit and i dont think the tvs aligns right after that hence the needs for new brackets. they tried fitting the lotus ones on the celica but it hit the AC lines

[Gtsjeg04]

Is there a picture of the kit?

[StraightXrs]

Originally Posted by jtweezy

can somebody make the manifold for the TVS supercharger?

I found the supercharger for $1600

where?

[Entranced]

Originally Posted by hombredelassrta

they tried fitting the lotus ones on the celica but it hit the AC lines

how badly? could you bend the lines out of the way?

[GTsRasta]

http://www.newcelica.org/forums/show...=272566&page=2

Originally Posted by turbophil

Thanks. The TVS is pretty cool, especially for the guys with real pistons in the car since it can be spun into double digit boost levels with no problem (Cobalt guys are running 20 psi with them). My TVS setup will fit the Celica as well *IF* those AC lines aren't a problem with this new Greddy bracket design we're talking about, as I used a very similar design for the TVS.

Later,

Phil

Originally Posted by turbophil

ET- As it turns out the new bracket does interfere with Celica AC lines. It's too bad, as it's a really cool solution. The AC lines are easy to reroute, but the system needs to be bled to get that done...

So we still have several of our standard Greddy replacement brackets, but the only way the new Lotus bracket will fit is with a little work on the AC lines...

Hope that helps,

Phil

I hope I don't get accused of saying it's "easy" because I'm quoting someone else saying it is...

[gtsjoe89]

Originally Posted by jtweezy

can somebody make the manifold for the TVS supercharger?

I found the supercharger for $1600

Where did you find one for that price? sounds like a sweet deal!

Originally Posted by yodaddyguido

how much does the kit run? i work in a machine shop, brackets = cake

About how much would a bracket cost if you made one?

[turbophil]

I make the TVS kits for the lotus and all the non IC M62 kits for the the lotus as well... I can tell you it takes more than just a couple brackets (there's some machining on the TVS case as well for instance)... But with that, you're obviously welcome to take a stab at it. It's not too terribly hard, especially if you have a CNC mill within arms reach of the car

If there's enough interest, I can put together a Celica kit. There are a couple things that absolutely won't fit the celica that we use on the Lotus due to the AC lines. The power output is VERY significantly improved over the the M62. It takes a pretty well sorted IC on the 62 to match the power of a non-IC'ed TVS, that's for sure...

There are a few pics of the setup on my website...

Best,

TP

[Aka Rafa]

im sure there would be a good amount of interest on a kit like that....always depending on the final cost, especially in these times.

i would be interested for sure!

[gtsjoe89]

Originally Posted by turbophil

I make the TVS kits for the lotus and all the non IC M62 kits for the the lotus as well... I can tell you it takes more than just a couple brackets (there's some machining on the TVS case as well for instance)... But with that, you're obviously welcome to take a stab at it. It's not too terribly hard, especially if you have a CNC mill within arms reach of the car

If there's enough interest, I can put together a Celica kit. There are a couple things that absolutely won't fit the celica that we use on the Lotus due to the AC lines. The power output is VERY significantly improved over the the M62. It takes a pretty well sorted IC on the 62 to match the power of a non-IC'ed TVS, that's for sure...

There are a few pics of the setup on my website...

Best,

TP

Sounds like you know your stuff and would be a great candidate to put a kit together for us. Around what kind of price we looking at for a kit? Im sure there are many others who would be interested in purchasing it.

[hombredelassrta]

^^ yeah turbophil knows his crap for the 2zz s/c. i am going to go the I/C rout then prob move to the tvs when internals go in down the road.

[lVlemphizStylez]

don't expect too much out of that blower....

[turbophil]

Thanks for the interest guys...

To upgrade from the Greddy system, you're going to be looking at about $2,500 bucks... Give or take a bit... If someone is going from stock/NA, it will need another grand or so... Again, if I make it... It's hard to justify since I don't have a celica, but I'd be willing to give it a go if a couple guys jumped on board...

What you can expect is about 285whp and 180wtq on stock compression and 91octane fuel all day long. Factual numbers as seen on both dynojet dyno and mustang load sustaining dyno, and fully heat soaked. There's no magic to the tune. It's similar to a M62 tune. Happy to help tune the best I can, but I doubt anyone would need much help. You'll need 550cc injectors with walbro 255 fuel pump or 1:1 adjustable FPR with your greddy 440s and a walbro 255lph fuel pump. And a good intake and exhaust obviously...

To address Istylez post, I don't know what you mean? People can only expect what has been done and I've posted those results on LT a lot and here a little. I've done a lot of 2ZZ supercharging with the TVS to say the least... Anything more than what I just stated for power would be speculation, but certainly plausible. Better gas and smaller pulleys would certainly wake the car up even more... For someone to say otherwise, would also be unfounded and not based on actual experience with the TVS1320 paired with the 2ZZ, as I don't think anyone else on the planet has done it. If 285/180 is not much, then you're right...

I personally think those figures are pretty nice for a maintenance free system. Bolt it on, tune, and drive fast. There's no messing with it, no adjustments, and it's very smooth, and SUPER QUIET relative to the M62... but that's just my opinion... we all have them...

Best,

TP

[lVlemphizStylez]

Originally Posted by turbophil

If 285/180 is not much, then you're right...

yea that was my point...people are in this thread talking about building their motors then buying a TVS...that'd be a pure waste

[x310gtsx]

but wouldn't building the motor up a bit just add to the reliability of the motor in general with this setup?

[lVlemphizStylez]

Originally Posted by x310gtsx

but wouldn't building the motor up a bit just add to the reliability of the motor in general with this setup?

it'd be like using a sledge hammer to crack an egg....just a waste.

Fully built with all the money and down time invested...only to find out the TVS will not push your setup to where it should go. Stock motor it sounds like a good idea, but built?? I'd save my money

[turbophil]

What is built? Drop in a set of Mahles for 600 bucks would add a great degree of reliability to any of these engines, but I wouldn't call that built... Replace the valves and springs would also just be fixing weak links-- but again- does that mean it's built? I dunno... Point is the 2ZZ isn't particularly stout or tolerant in stock form, so at some point you're really just fixing weak links... Where fixing weak links crosses over to built a engine is subjective... For me, built, would include porting and blue printing at a minimum...

I love turbos as much as the next guy- I really do... but I also REALLY like the linear power that I get out of my TVS Lotus. The power delivery is just sooooo perfect for the track

Later,

TP

[lVlemphizStylez]

If I drop my oil pan to replace anything aside from the oil pan gasket I'm not looking to bolt everything back up to make sub 300whp. Pistons, rods, crank etc, if any of that changes from stock to aftermarket, that's built in my book

[hombredelassrta]

when i mentioned internals it was in reference to pistons as thats really all that is needed as an upgrade in this power range. other stuff is a waste unless you are trying to squeeze every inch out of the engine using only a blower

[lVlemphizStylez]

if you're going to build the motor, go make some actual power is all I'm saying...and yes changing your pistons constitutes building. There are different degrees of building, from mild builds to fully built...

[hombredelassrta]

mine will be very mild

[StraightXrs]

Originally Posted by turbophil

Thanks for the interest guys...

To upgrade from the Greddy system, you're going to be looking at about $2,500 bucks... Give or take a bit... If someone is going from stock/NA, it will need another grand or so... Again, if I make it... It's hard to justify since I don't have a celica, but I'd be willing to give it a go if a couple guys jumped on board...


TP

At this price you have my attention.

[turbophil]

I've got a couple irons in the fire that need tending to... I'll do a Celica mock up on the model 2ZZ after I get caught up a little...

TP

[StraightXrs]

Originally Posted by turbophil

I've got a couple irons in the fire that need tending to... I'll do a Celica mock up on the model 2ZZ after I get caught up a little...

TP

great, thanks keep us updated.

[GTsRasta]

Ok Memphis...start investing in a 2zz engine build that has it's stock c60 transmission crap out over 300 whp...or even at stock power levels...and come back and say how much it's worth to go big turbo over any other FI option...

::

It's just the same song...sub 300 whp is weak...yet anybody over 300 whp...like yankeegts who first did the mr2 tranny swap for his gt30 garrett series turbo build...has to consider upgrading their tranny...very few people want to spend money ok that swap here...or on any of the zz forums.

In any case, they're running mid 11's with this sub 300 whp setup. And they haven't even touched bigger throttle bodies, 3" intakes, or water injection for more power. 300 whp should be in reach.

[lVlemphizStylez]

Originally Posted by GTsRasta

Ok Memphis...start investing in a 2zz engine build that has it's stock c60 transmission crap out over 300 whp...or even at stock power levels...and come back and say how much it's worth to go big turbo over any other FI option...

::

It's just the same song...sub 300 whp is weak...yet anybody over 300 whp...like yankeegts who first did the mr2 tranny swap for his gt30 garrett series turbo build...has to consider upgrading their tranny...very few people want to spend money ok that swap here...or on any of the zz forums.

In any case, they're running mid 11's with this sub 300 whp setup. And they haven't even touched bigger throttle bodies, 3" intakes, or water injection for more power. 300 whp should be in reach.

I've changed a few things about how I respond to people now...so I won't chew you out....again...but stop talking about mid 11's in Lotus's that weigh 2000 lbs with 60ft's that the Celica will not put down. It's completely irrelevant and to even mention it as a high point of this setup is stupid. And again, you've never built anything with over 200 crank hp so how do you know anything about what happens over 300 whp with the car?? Know what people told me about my transmission?? Over 400 whp the transmission will start to die....guess what?? Not everything is as cut and dry as you read it...a lot of what isn't talked about is how these cars are driven when these transmissions give up.

BTW I almost died laughing when you mentioned mid 11's in the Elise like there is some parallel to be drawn with the times a Celica will put down with the TVS...those reading, do not be misled, you will be NOWHERE NEAR the 11's with that blower

I want to see the time slip of this sub 300 whp Lotus that runs mid 11's too (along with mention of it's mods to suspension)...I'm willing to bet it's ALL ET and NO TRAP SPEED. Meaning it's basically dead hooking cutting sub 1.6's.

[ikhaffaji]

Originally Posted by lVlemphizStylez

I've changed a few things about how I respond to people now...so I won't chew you out....again...but stop talking about mid 11's in Lotus's that weigh 2000 lbs with 60ft's that the Celica will not put down. It's completely irrelevant and to even mention it as a high point of this setup is stupid. And again, you've never built anything with over 200 crank hp so how do you know anything about what happens over 300 whp with the car?? Know what people told me about my transmission?? Over 400 whp the transmission will start to die....guess what?? Not everything is as cut and dry as you read it...a lot of what isn't talked about is how these cars are driven when these transmissions give up.

BTW I almost died laughing when you mentioned mid 11's in the Elise like there is some parallel to be drawn with the times a Celica will put down with the TVS...those reading, do not be misled, you will be NOWHERE NEAR the 11's with that blower

I want to see the time slip of this sub 300 whp Lotus that runs mid 11's too (along with mention of it's mods to suspension)...I'm willing to bet it's ALL ET and NO TRAP SPEED. Meaning it's basically dead hooking cutting sub 1.6's.

Realistically, I think that this set-up would probably run somewhere near low 13's to high high 12's. And about the transmission thing, very true. You can even screw up your transmission stock if you abuse it.

[lVlemphizStylez]

Originally Posted by ikhaffaji

Realistically, I think that this set-up would probably run somewhere near low 13's to high high 12's. And about the transmission thing, very true. You can even screw up your transmission stock if you abuse it.

That's where I would put it as well...probably mid 12 with a nasty 60 (on the extreme high end of setups). But 11's...keep dreaming

[StraightXrs]

i will happily take mid 12's from a supercharged 4 banger.

[lVlemphizStylez]

Originally Posted by StraightXrs

i will happily take mid 12's from a supercharged 4 banger.

on the EXTREME HIGH END....with 1.6 60's (slicks)....If that's your MAX goal...then more power to you, sounds like this is for you

[GTsRasta]

You can say what you want. All I know is that I got a completely stock GTS at 28,000 with a completely shot 3rd gear syncros, and 4th gear was about to follow it. 05-06 Lotus owners can vouch for how weak the stock tranny is, even NA. After a few months, I finally made time to get a new tranny replaced under warranty, and have put over almost 40,000 miles on my new tranny with almost no griding to speak of after babying it for daily driving. CLIFF NOTES: THE STOCK TRANNY IS WEAK AS FCUK.

As for me saying they're running mid 11's, that's something cool these decently well off Lotus owners can accomplished with a bolt on kit, and something to consider when going over to Celicas. Maybe we can get in the 12's with that. Who knows, till it's done. If it wasn't for some wealthy Lotus owners wanting to put this setup in their light weight car, this TVS thread wouldn't have been created. Read the first post. Drawing parallels to the Lotus is going to be inherit in this thread, whether you like it or not.

As for the quarter mile claim, here you go, and EVERYTHING he has done to his car: http://www.drjanestewart.com/darksol/showcase.html

11.9 @ 119 mph, with a 1.77 60'. And since I have to put a disclaimer on everything I post now...obviously this is a drag racing guy...and he did some work to the suspension and weight reduction in order to run those times. Nothing too crazy, if you really look at his mod list. The car is still designed to take turns well, and not to just go fast in a straight line.

Anyway, I'm sure I'm not crazy that I saw him post up a mid 11's time once. I might be wrong, and I'll readily admit I'm wrong if he's ONLY pulling high 11's with this bolt on kit and weight reduction...

NM, I found where I saw the mid 11's estimation from:

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/1276214-post1152.html

Originally Posted by darkSol

If I remember correctly Jim ran a 13.165 @ 111.91 mph with his clutch slipping all over the damn place... and a 2.548 second 60' time. Pretty damn impressive!

I need to be able to hit 8700rpm to avoid hitting 5th gear... then I should be able to pull a 11.75 @ 121.3 mph run... If I'm stuck at 8200rpm then I'll run 11.99 @ 114.5 mph. The shift is just at the wrong time...

Here's the shift rpm vs. ET table:

shift rpm / time slip
8000 = 12.10 @ 113.0
8100 = 12.05 @ 113.6
8200 = 11.99 @ 114.5
8300 = 11.93 @ 116.0
8400 = 11.88 @ 118.0
8500 = 11.83 @ 119.9
8600 = 11.79 @ 121.1
8700 = 11.75 @ 121.3 (no shift to 5th)
8800 = 11.72 @ 121.5
8900 = 11.69 @ 121.6
9000 = 11.66 @ 121.7

Yeah the XTSS clutch requires more "pedal power" but it holds everything... so far

I guess he's running high 11's, with potential to run mid 11's. I'll own up to that, and say that's my mistake. He just need a little bit more power. Still not bad considering this car first started off in the mid 13's.

But seriously...when turning a 15 second car to a 12 second car is a bolt on ordeal...and turning a 15 second car to a 11 second car calls for rebuilding of the engine AND maybe the transmission...the choice is clear as to which power goals will fit the majority of our budgets...so yea...we get it..we aim low...but we're stuck with our non-factory turbo'd 2zz powered cars with weak stock trannys...if going big turbo is worth the trouble so much...just make a thread about the pros vs the cons so all we have to do is search for it for reference...

[lVlemphizStylez]

he ran 11.9 in a Lotus with weight reduction and suspension mods...and that's what you're going to use as your arguing point for the TVS on the Celica which weighs in 500+ more than the Lotus stock and has the front wheels driving the car?? You don't see the flaw in that?? ok you win...I'll just let you have this one. Based on the results of that lotus...I withdraw my mid 12 estimate....

[GTsRasta]

Originally Posted by lVlemphizStylez

he ran 11.9 in a Lotus with weight reduction and suspension mods...and that's what you're going to use as your arguing point for the TVS on the Celica which weighs in 500+ more than the Lotus stock and has the front wheels driving the car?? You don't see the flaw in that??

When did I say we will run 11's too?

Time for a new disclaimer:

ANY LOTUS TIMES I POST WILL BE SLOWER FOR THE CELICA ON A COMPARABLE SETUP

God forbid I say the NA Lotus runs mid 13's stock and people will believe their 500+ lb heavier FWD Celica will run the same time stock too...

This is just getting ridiculous...seriously...first inherit FI cooling differences in another thread...now this...

[lVlemphizStylez]

what was the point in mentioning that Lotus's run 11's with the blower then??? If you can't answer this maybe you should stop

Cobra's run 10's with TVS blowers....it has just as much relevance as your post

[GTsRasta]

The fact that this bolt on kit reliably turns a mid 13 second 2zz powered Lotus into a low 12....or a high 11 second car after weight reduction...

Sounds enticing...doesn't it?

I'd love to hear something like this...and the difference it makes to Lotus vehicles if I wanted to convert that setup to a Celica GTS based one...along with starting interest in making a conversion kit... kinda like the thread we're in right now...hmmmmmmmmmmm....

Apply this magnitude of power delivery to a GTS, and someone can use their common sense to deduce that they may be able to hit high 12's (which is within the stock block/tranny's limits), and no longer stay in the 13 second range while maxing the Greddy kits. Or maybe they'll have nothing better to do with their time and assume I'm saying that GTS's can be bolt on 11 second cars too...who knows...

Granted, a turbo setup would not need any additional bolt ons on top of the kit itself to make that power on that many pounds of boost (minus a maybe boost controller), but it's an alternative option to a bolt on 270+ whp that doesn't leave a gaping intercooler in the front of your car for cops & the world to see (like on turbo setups), nor does the TVS require you to cut into your aftermarket bumper in order to make room for intercooler pipes (like how nogoauto did to his kaminari bumper...which I have).

[hombredelassrta]

children please keep the banter off this

[leppardized]

Originally Posted by hombredelassrta

children please keep the banter off this

[darkSol]

I have NOT run 11's yet... it's my guestimation.

ONCE a year in late October / early November I'll take my car to the drag strip to see "what she'll do"... here's how she's done since I've had her:

• 2005: 13.180 @ 102.70 mph. 167.31 whp. 2100 lbs. Bone stock. Yoko A048's.
  
• 2006: 13.030 @ 105.06 mph. 177.17 whp. 2050 lbs. Intake/header/exhaust. Yoko A048's.
  
• 2007: 12.603 @ 109.63 mph. 230.87 whp. 2070 lbs. Katana (Greddy) supercharger with 3.2" pulley. Yoko A048's.
  
• 2008: 12.697 @ 112.10 mph. 230.11 whp. 2030 lbs. Same setup. 3.4" pulley. General Exclaim UHP.
  
• 2009: 11.900 @ 119.03 mph*. 286.44 whp. 1987 lbs. TVS Supercharger. General Exclaim UHP.

*ESTIMATED... holding 8500 redline in 4th for last 40 feet... ugh.

I also have NOT touched the suspension at all - stock LSS setup.

Just weight reduction... moving from a low 13 second car to a mid-high 11 second car... that's all I need. I don't want to break anything... lol.

Hope this helps... I'll find out how fast she actually is in 138 days... it's too damn hot now!

[lVlemphizStylez]

lmao wait a minute....so you have no 11 second time slip??? those numbers are bench racing figures??? wow...way to go GTSRasta...credibility has gone into the negative region

[turbophil]

Some how this truned into a drag racing thread??? Oh well...

1) Dark's ET estimates are always within a nat's arse of being exactly on. He should be on that Speed TV show where they estimate ETs. What's it called, "slips" or something??? Regardless, it doesn't matter. The lotus is a terrible drag car. If you launch it to hard, it breaks, and the gear ratios are as bad as it gets for the quarter as Dark pointed out... perhaps no worse than a Celica, but still terrible. It will do 120+ mph in the quarter... and that's reasonably quick by most standards. I have no idea what that has to do with the TVS though...

2) I think the buyer of a supercharger is different than the turbo buyer. The SC'ed buyer likely wants more power than stock without sacraficing any reliability (or atleast sacraficing as little reliability as possible) but is happy with *just* X power (in this case 280ish whp). The turbo buyer has no set HP goal in mind. The turbo guy just wants the most power he can get... and then when he gets there, he wants even more power. A turbo is great for that mindset-- a supercharger is not... I've never seen an *aftermarket* turbo system that can match the reliability of a roots style SC system. There's a whole host of issues why that is, and I'm sure many those issues can be addressed over time in nearly every case- but not everyone want to be in the business of addressing issues on their FI system. To the Turbo's credit, even the best SC systems can be trumped by the best turbo systems for all out power. However, the SC is hard to beat for bolt on and go. It's pretty cheap, reliable, and cretainly has the most predictable power delivery- albeit, less total power than a good turbo system...

3) If someone's goal is 300whp or less, then the TVS is THE BEST option currently available as far as I know. If someone wants more than 300whp, the current best option is still a turbo... FWIW, 300whp could easily be achieved w/ the TVS and water injection, race fuel, more aggressive tune, etc...

Just my two cents based on my experience...

TP

[darkSol]

Originally Posted by turbophil

He should be on that Speed TV show where they estimate ETs. What's it called, "slips" or something???

Passtime - I DO tape it and guess along... I sometimes get it waaay wrong with some of the bigger American muscle. Imports / bikes are pretty easy though

Originally Posted by turbophil

If someone's goal is 300whp or less, then the TVS is THE BEST option currently available as far as I know. If someone wants more than 300whp, the current best option is still a turbo... FWIW, 300whp could easily be achieved w/ the TVS and water injection, race fuel, more aggressive tune, etc...

Agree completely.

[the ronin]

Originally Posted by turbophil

Some how this truned into a drag racing thread??? Oh well...

1) Dark's ET estimates are always within a nat's arse of being exactly on. He should be on that Speed TV show where they estimate ETs. What's it called, "slips" or something??? Regardless, it doesn't matter. The lotus is a terrible drag car. If you launch it to hard, it breaks, and the gear ratios are as bad as it gets for the quarter as Dark pointed out... perhaps no worse than a Celica, but still terrible. It will do 120+ mph in the quarter... and that's reasonably quick by most standards. I have no idea what that has to do with the TVS though...

2) I think the buyer of a supercharger is different than the turbo buyer. The SC'ed buyer likely wants more power than stock without sacraficing any reliability (or atleast sacraficing as little reliability as possible) but is happy with *just* X power (in this case 280ish whp). The turbo buyer has no set HP goal in mind. The turbo guy just wants the most power he can get... and then when he gets there, he wants even more power. A turbo is great for that mindset-- a supercharger is not... I've never seen an *aftermarket* turbo system that can match the reliability of a roots style SC system. There's a whole host of issues why that is, and I'm sure many those issues can be addressed over time in nearly every case- but not everyone want to be in the business of addressing issues on their FI system. To the Turbo's credit, even the best SC systems can be trumped by the best turbo systems for all out power. However, the SC is hard to beat for bolt on and go. It's pretty cheap, reliable, and cretainly has the most predictable power delivery- albeit, less total power than a good turbo system...

3) If someone's goal is 300whp or less, then the TVS is THE BEST option currently available as far as I know. If someone wants more than 300whp, the current best option is still a turbo... FWIW, 300whp could easily be achieved w/ the TVS and water injection, race fuel, more aggressive tune, etc...

Just my two cents based on my experience...

TP

Where do you get this bull sheat from.....

I've never seen an *aftermarket* turbo system that can match the reliability of a roots style SC system.

What is the differance between an OEM turbo setup and a aftermarket setup...nothing if done right..you're a freakin bonehead with that statment as with the no set power goals.....
I knocked out 310rwhp with the old MP62 without any issues..compaired to your two blown engines with the TVS at 275 in the dead of winter ..

Oh yeah it breaks if you launch it hard...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znr2MuL6rE0

[turbophil]

You're kidding, right?

[the ronin]

Originally Posted by turbophil

You're kidding, right?

Do you mean about your BS...nah

[turbophil]

So you are... just making sure...that last post you had was pretty funny...

[the ronin]

Originally Posted by turbophil

So you are... just making sure...that last post you had was pretty funny...

Oh you mean the part about you toasting two engines with your tuning the TVS or did I forget to mention the TVS engine that Jim Claton toasted also ?..