Celica GT setup for G-stock SCCA solo 2 class

[VRUM VR6]

I'm an experienced autocrosser who is new to the Celica and new to stock class too. It seems that I may be buying a Celica GT soon and I have a lot of questions.

1. How wide are the stock 15 inch alloys?
2. How much do those rims weigh?
3. Was the 16 inch alloy an option on Celica GT or is it legal in GS class on GT?
4. If so, what are the width & weight on the 16 stock alloy?
5. I know stock wheel size required, but can you change tire aspect ratio (height)?
6. Is REAR camber adjustable on Celica in stock class? How and what range?
7. Are there any decent shocks/struts for less than $200/ea. out there?

I know I had more questions, but that's all I can think of for now. Thanks in advance for your expertise or input.

[kavanaghmtl]

Originally Posted by VRUM VR6

How wide are the stock 15 inch alloys?

6.5 i believe

Originally Posted by VRUM VR6

3. Was the 16 inch alloy an option on Celica GT or is it legal in GS class on GT?

it was standard on the gts not on the gt

Originally Posted by VRUM VR6

7. Are there any decent shocks/struts for less than $200/ea. out there?

kyb agx!

[renfield90]

Originally Posted by VRUM VR6

1. How wide are the stock 15 inch alloys?

6.5 inches wide.

Originally Posted by VRUM VR6

2. How much do those rims weigh?

Too much - but then again, it's always too much weight, right? I have a set of steelies that are 20 pounds. I would guess the stock rims are 15-17 pounds.

I'm currently using the stock wheels, because I'm just that cheap.

Originally Posted by VRUM VR6

3. Was the 16 inch alloy an option on Celica GT or is it legal in GS class on GT?

No. 15x6.5 is the only legal GT size available. Offset is 38. I have a set of wheels I daily drive with a 35 offset that fit fine. Yes, I have three sets of wheels, but I'm still cheap. Go figure.

For reference, the GTS has a 16x6.5 so you don't gain any wheel width by switching to that trim. You will, however, get shorter gears and a crappier torque band. The GT is the better option.

Originally Posted by VRUM VR6

5. I know stock wheel size required, but can you change tire aspect ratio (height)?

Tire size is unrestricted. Someone did a test once between a 205 tire and a 225 tire. The wider tire averaged 0.5 seconds faster. I wouldn't really go past 225 though, as I suspect the tire is just going to be too deformed to work as good. Hot tires right now are the Hoosier A6 and the Goodyear Eagle RS DOT.

Originally Posted by VRUM VR6

6. Is REAR camber adjustable on Celica in stock class? How and what range?

Yes. You should have more than enough adjustment range to get the camber you need, especially if you upgrade to a stiffer rear sway bar. Keep in mind the rear suspension gains camber and toe out as it's compressed. This is a somewhat significant amount if you're still on the the stock sway bar, not so much if you go stiffer. I'm at 1.0 degrees of camber in the rear and based on visual inspection at an event of what parts of the tire are getting used, I'm pretty much dead on. I have pretty much the stiffest OTS sway bar available, the Hotchkis Competition bar. Supposedly they quit making that though...ask Bill Loring, I think he picked his up through less than conventional channels.

You will need the crash bolts to get the right amount of camber in the front. Search this forum, someone posted part numbers a long time ago.

Originally Posted by VRUM VR6

7. Are there any decent shocks/struts for less than $200/ea. out there?

Define "decent" shocks and struts. I recently bought the KYB AGX as has been mentioned. However, it adjusts rebound and compression in lockstep. Rebound is a little soft at the lower settings and compression is too stiff at the higher settings. Makes for a frustrating tuning experience. If you can find someone willing to part with their Konis, I would really recommend that. Most Konis have been converted to accept a 2.5" ID spring though, and now that Koni quit making the rears for our car I doubt anyone will want to part with theirs.

[VRUM VR6]

There's some great info here, thank you!

I'm still curious as to the weight for the stock 15 inch alloy if anyone knows it, because the lightest rim(s) currenty on Tire Rack are 15.3lbs. and if it's in the ball park... no use wasting extra money for nothing. Also, I believe there are yellow Koni inserts on TR for the front... would Koni front and KYB AGX rears be better than all KYB?

Also, just to clarify - the rear camber is adjustable from the factory? I know it is on my Audi A4 and I love that fact!

[renfield90]

Originally Posted by VRUM VR6

Also, just to clarify - the rear camber is adjustable from the factory?

Yes. No special hardware needed. If your alignment guy tells you otherwise, find a new alignment guy. Sorry if that wasn't very clear, so I'll explain in a separate paragraph.

When you go into a turn, your suspension compresses. On the Celica, the fronts do not undergo any change in alignment - camber and toe are static through the whole range of suspension motion. The rear, however, will change - if by chance you ever dump 200 pounds of whatever into the trunk, pay attention to the wheels before and after. You can see a visible difference.

Therefore, when you come up with a plan for where you want to adjust camber and toe in the rear, your settings should take this into account. The amount your rear suspension compresses in a turn is affected by things like sway bar strength.

Originally Posted by VRUM VR6

I'm still curious as to the weight for the stock 15 inch alloy if anyone knows it, because the lightest rim(s) currenty on Tire Rack are 15.3lbs. and if it's in the ball park... no use wasting extra money for nothing.

Don't bother. Try these: http://www.imageinmotion.com/SLIPSTR...5-5100-40-.htm

I have this wheel in a 15x7 and it is 13.0 pounds (actual weight as measured by me). Those guys ship from Canada so it may be pricey. I bought my set from racinglab.com (not these guys), but racinglab doesn't have a 15x6.5 Slipstream in our lug pattern.

Originally Posted by VRUM VR6

would Koni front and KYB AGX rears be better than all KYB?

I don't think so. I think I posted a thread recently outlining why I don't like the AGXs and it boils down to me not being able to dial up the rebound I really want in the rear because compression goes too high. I'm still testing this and I'm running an event this weekend so I'll have more data then, but for now this is forcing me to keep the rears somewhat soft, and the fronts even softer, just to get the transitional balance that I want. In other words, the rears are the sticking point in my setup, not the fronts.

Tokico makes non-adjustable performance shocks for the Celica, but if you've ever seen the autocross guide at farnorthracing.com, the guy there specifically lists them as "crap" so I personally wouldn't buy them. For that matter, by his rationale the KYBs are probably "crap" too, but they are probably better than the stock shocks.

On the plus side, at this softness I don't need to change the settings if it rains.



Hope that all makes sense. Let me know if you need any clarifications or if you have more questions.

[theguy216]

just as an FYI the Koni yellow rears for the Scion TC are a direct fit for the celica. They are probably going to be a little stiff because of the higher weight of the TC, but that may be a better option than the AGX's.

[renfield90]

Is there proof of this i.e. installed pics? I heard the spring seat was different. If so that's a big boon for everyone except me. Looks like I built a losing car.

Konis can be revalved so that shouldn't be an issue. My understanding of shocks though is that stiffness depends more on spring rate (wheel rate, to be precise) than on weight of the car.

[theguy216]

I'm not certain it has been tested with Koni's specifically but there have been several instances of Scions using celica shocks and if you followed the Raceland Coilover thread in the suspension forum, the rear shocks seemed to be a direct fit, only the fronts required modification.

I hadn't heard that the spring seat was different ...

[VRUM VR6]

Oh man, this would be great news if they truly fit.

[theguy216]

Guess someone needs to make friends with a TC owner who has a set of Koni yellows and borrow them for a day...

I was hoping to be able to do a suspension upgrade sometime this summer, and I figured I'd take the risk and try the TC rears, but at this point it might not be in the budget brakes and tires are the immediate concern and I'm still having some issues with some clunking from the front end that I need to fix before thinking about springs/shocks.

[Bill Loring]

Hey guys. I picked up my Hotchkis Competition bar from Tire Rack, where I work. It was special order, but we ordered two, so I'm fairly sure there's still one in stock. And we should be able to get more, but I'm not 100% on that.

I'm hoping the bar will allow me to use less aggressive shock settings, which could also be good news for drivers that can't find a set of custom-valved Koni D/A Yellows.

I wouldn't worry much about wheel weights. John and Chris from Tire Rack drove the Grassroots/Tire Rack project STR MX5 for the last two years. Within that, they did two wheel weight tests. Each time, they found that the difference in lap times for light wheels was not statistically significant. They could FEEL the difference, but they couldn't measure it.

I hope this info helps. Good luck!

[donteatbugs]

The max camber I could get in the Rear on my stock gt-s was -1.9. With 1 crash bolt in the front i was able to get -2.1 and -1.7. I am running a eibach rear sway bar and run on some vw bbs 15x6.5 +40 I think. Right now I havent run a hoosier yet but I tested this setup with 205 50 15 r888 and It did really well. I can assume the with a hoosier a6 in 225 that it would be very competitive.

[Bill Loring]

Oh, here are the crash bolt part numbers:

90105-15004, 13.9 o.d, 1 dot
90105-15005, 13.3 o.d, 2 dots
90105-15006, 12.4 o.d, 3 dots

[conehugger]

I am pretty sure that camber changes on the front as it compresses and when camber changes the toe changes. I don't think it changes as much as the changes you will see on the rear of the car, but it does change.

Stiffness of a shock depends strictly on the valving and shim stacks within a shock. It has nothing to do with the spring especially in stock. Typically a shock is valved to match the spring and this might be the case on the soft settings for a stock class shock. On the hard settings you basically don't want the car to move. You want the shock to have stiff enough rebound to hold the corner down once it gets compressed. You want the compression stiff enough to make the tire work at its maximum grip when you toss the weight onto that corner. Shocks in stock category are unlike shocks for anything else. You are making them do things that they should not be designed to do.

The stiffer sway bars are more about controlling body roll, so that you don't get into a positive camber gain on the front tires when you dive into a corner. It is also about lessening the rear grip to get the car to start rotating.

I hope to see a bunch more Celicas at the top this year in GS.

[VRUM VR6]

Originally Posted by donteatbugs

I am running a eibach rear sway bar and run on some vw bbs 15x6.5 +40 I think. Right now I havent run a hoosier yet but I tested this setup with 205 50 15 r888 and It did really well.

No sh!t, are you F-ing serious? (Pardon my excitable French please.) That didn't even cross my mind! ...I have a 1993 VW Corrado SLC VR6 with three different sets of VW 5X100 rims... one set of 1993 Speedlines, one set of 1992 BBS, and one set of BBS off of a 1995 Jetta VR6! So these may just bolt on to a Celica? If that's the case - then I struck GOLD! Would I need any hub-centric rings or direct fit?

BTW, buying my original owner white 95.9k mi. 2000 Celica GT 5spd. with plastic factory sunroof this Saturday... cannot wait!

[VRUM VR6]

Bill,

Is there any way that you can either confirm or deny the fitment of Scion TC rear Koni yellows to the rear of the Celica? Even it is just the fact that people have bought them for a Celica.

Also, since you posted camber bolt part numbers curious about which ones you use and what alignment settings... I'm buying my Celica this Saturday and want to hit the ground running.

One other question for anyone that knows... for SCCA Solo stock class - the camber bolts HAVE to be dealer bolts I assume?

[donteatbugs]

You will need rings in the wheels if you want them to be hubcentric, I run mine with a tapered lug and no rings without a problem.

I had some TC konis once and looked at putting them on my celica. the rears looked identical to the celicas but the fronts were about and inch too long. I sold them before I could bolt them up because I bought some koni DAs for my car.

Yes they have to be toyota bolts for stock class. You can run 4 of them though. They are really cheap too.

[Bill Loring]

Our Koni parts buyer looked into the TC shocks. Koni is not aware of anyone using these on a Celica, and cannot confirm that they will work. This doesn't mean that they won't work, but they cannot confirm it. If I had an excuse to remove my rear shocks, I'd bring them here and compare them to a new set of Scion shocks. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening any time soon. Sorry.

Apparently the reason the rear was discontinued was that it was a US-only setup, with no sales. So if you want rear shocks, you should probably contact Koni directly. If they hear from enough people, perhaps they'll bring them back. Of course I can make no promises.

On the wheels, remember to look at offset as well. You'd prefer to move the wheels out towards the fenders, rather than in towards the suspension. As I recall, you have 1/4" within the rules, which is about 6mm. My heavier wheels are not hub centric. For autocross, this has never been a problem for me.

As far as camber, I've got the three dot bolts top and bottom on my car. So I'm getting max camber. I don't have the current camber numbers with me today, but I'll try to post them shortly. I have some long studs to install on the front wheels, so I may be taking the car back to the alignment shop soon.

If I had to guess, I'd say I've got about -2.0 front, and -1.4 rear. But I don't know for certain. I should have that here in my computer, but I don't.

[VRUM VR6]

Thanks for your input guys!

1. Swaybar(s):
So theoretically if you already had your car's handling sorted and were running a front swaybar (or both stock bars, or no front bar...) within the previous rules and now you decided to go with a more agressive rear bar/stock front bar under new rules - then now you are starting over with suspension tuning because your car will now be way loose is my assumption.

2. Brakes:
On another note, I'm used to ABS brakes. The Celica GT that I'm buying tomorrow has no ABS, therefore I'm slightly apprehensive about re-learning how to brake now. What are you guys running in the way of pads/shoes? Anyone following the Miata habit of super agressive rears and stock front pads to deal with lock-up?

3. Power (more specifically lack of):
I knew that the Celica GT is among the top 2 or 3 contenders in G-stock. When I test drove it though I have to admit that I knew IMMEDIATELY that it had absolutely zero to do with power. (I have driven SRT-4s, Civic SIs, etc. so I know that right off the start line the Celica is losing and that off-the-line loss has to be made up in the slaloms and corners by the driver.) Is there a particular exhaust setup that enhances HP and/or torque a bit (rather than just sounding faster)? Or any other G-stock legal power ideas you may have for that matter. And yes I'm well aware that this is probably the lowest bang-for-the-buck area to work on and may not be worth the $$ at all.

[Bill Loring]

Yeah, I'm starting over on handling this year, with the addition of the Hotchkis Comp rear bar. I might try to do some evening testing here at Tire Rack, or get to a test and tune or two. Or just wing it and see how it goes. I am a person who "just drives." I don't generally spend a lot of time with setup.

Brakes: I use OE pads and shoes. No need for anything more aggressive. The car has plenty of brake. And this was on the initial advice of GS Celica drivers before me, like Priebe, Eckert, Carpenter, and others. Since you're used to ABS, you'll need to learn how to threshold brake. When you get good at it, you'll be more efficient than if you had ABS.

Power: Yes, the car is most certainly down on power to pretty much all the other GS contenders. But it's also smaller and lighter, and gets easy legal camber. And those are huge things in autocross. At big events, I remove both my trailer hitch, and the back section of the exhaust. This terminates right in front of the rear axle line. The car is actually noisier from the cockpit than it is from outside. I've been told that removing the exhaust will provide a little more power high in the power band, but I've never dyno'ed it. I'm pretty sure that others have. But the main thing is that dropping those two items takes probably 50 lbs off the car. I'll have to weigh those parts someday, so I could verify that.

The great part is, removing the exhaust is FREE! I have a small straight pipe section that I could put on in its place, but it's a lot easier just to take the pipe off. I can do it in the paddock in about 30 minutes, including removing the hitch. The exhaust is held on with two bolts, and three rubber hangers.

Finally, I've also been told not to bother with higher octane fuels. I buy 87, and the car works great.

[mrfunny107]

is there a decibal limit for autox??? I was told there was.

[VRUM VR6]

There are some kind of noise restrictions. I've never been close to that loud of a car - so I'm not familiar with them. Sounds like Bill's exhaust tip would essentially be buried under the car pointing at a hollow area underneath and resonating throughout the car. So like he said it's probably quite loud inside the car, but not so much outside.

[Xtra Big Kahuna]

If you are looking for power with an exhaust and you don't want to just run without any then buy the TRD exhaust. It has the best power gains out of all the exhausts and is lighter then stock but it wont be as light as no exhaust.

[Bill Loring]

When running the straight pipe, I was never in danger of hitting the Db limit. Per the very latest Fastrack news, that's 100DbA. The relevant info is here: http://www.scca.com/assets/12-fastrack-april-solo.pdf

And I found my numbers from my last alignment. -2.2 front, -1.6 rear, zero toe all around.

Of course with different shocks or tires, YMMV.

**** Post edited to show correct rear camber of -1.6 degrees.

[VRUM VR6]

Cool, thanks Bill.

I picked up my new ride on Saturday (woohoo) as expected, so now I really need to find time to get busy with it!

[Bill Loring]

Most excellent! Looking forward to seeing you at some events this year! Will you be doing any of the National Tour events?

[VRUM VR6]

Thanks Bill. I don't normally do them because I don't buy R-comps, but classes changed a bit tire-wise - so we'll see. I race with 9 or so local clubs in the Chicago area mainly - it keeps me busy. My name is John BTW.

I don't have a repair manual nor have I been underneath it yet. Does the trans like synthetic gear oil I suppose? Need 2 quarts or so? How about the clutch is it hydraulic? If so, what's the bleed procedure?

[theguy216]

The repair manual is available on the site at http://newcelica.org/other/technical/index.htm#manuals

As for the the transmission, most people here swear by Redline LWSP. Not certain on the clutch bleed procedure, should be in the manual

[Bill Loring]

I use the Redline MT90. I've never had any trouble at all with it, certainly nothing like the complaints from the linked thread. Of course my car is bone stock, so that may have something to do with it. If I were running an LSD (oh, I wish!), then things might be different.

http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=308200

Looking at my service record, I put the MT90 in at 67k, in Sept of 2008. I suppose it's probably time for me to refresh that. It's got over 30k on it now.

[theguy216]

^I'm using the "cocktail" now and it's a pain for me. No place here sells all 3 so when I have to do a change it means driving all over town and back : /. In the future I'll just use the LWSP.

I used MT-90 for a while, it was ok, by the time I swapped to it 4th gear was on it's way out and 2nd had started acting up. 4 months later the clutch went out so I went ahead and had the transmission replaced at the same time. I can't say the Redline helped my already crappy transmission, but it certainly didn't do anymore damage than was already done.

[renfield90]

Originally Posted by Bill Loring

At big events, I remove...the back section of the exhaust. This terminates right in front of the rear axle line.

Doesn't it exit right under the gas tank? I'd be worried about sitting in grid, engine running, heating up that fuel. Do you shut your car off in grid?

[Bill Loring]

The exhaust terminates just behind the trailing edge of the gas tank. I don't think it would be much hotter under the car with the pipe off. There's lots of room there, and the exhaust points away from the tank, and not towards anything much at all. There are several heat shields in place as well.

There are two reasons I wouldn't leave the pipe off for extended periods. It's annoyingly loud inside the car, and a rather long section of pipe is unsupported when the tail piece is off.

And yes, I do shut my car off in grid. But not because I'm worried about heat from the exhaust.

[conehugger]

I always dropped the exhaust at events and never had problems with the gas tank. I always left the car running during events too. If you have remote canisters then you want to make sure it and the hose are not in direct stream of exhaust when under power. I have had issues of the hose cover melting.
As far a s noise level goes, I had high flow cat and headers for ST and never got above 92 db at any event without muffler. Stock cat and resonator you would be lucky to push 85 db. This was on a GT.

[renfield90]

Good to know. I may play around with this at my next event.

[VRUM VR6]

Clarification wanted about strut *inserts* as I've never dealt with them before... are the plug & play or do you need additional parts or machining? I've changed shocks/struts a few times but never inserts.

Also, is there a preference between the Koni #"8641 1409Sport" recommended for Celica front and Koni #"8641 1422Sport" which is MR2-S back strut that supposedly fits the Celica front?

[mrfunny107]

literally just cut the ends off and smash them in and bolt them inplace. thats really it. If you need help I can swing by. I got them on my car.

[theguy216]

Not quite plug and play. check this out http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=223037

I've never heard of the MR2-S back strut fitting the celica front. Not saying it doesn't just never heard that before...

[theguy216]

I know this is off topic, but is anyone running a celica in Street Touring now? Last year I think we were in STS, but this year it looks like we've been moved to STC? Any opinions on the celicas competitiveness in that class?

[Bill Loring]

You'll still be up against the 1990 Civic Si, so it's going to be a tough class. I have had both Brian Priebe and Bob Carpenter tell me that they think the Celica could be competitive, but that no one has properly set one up yet. I don't think I'm the guy to do it, as I don't have the setup experience. But it seems like it should be possible.

[mrfunny107]

idk, im am kind of nervous for my first autox event. Even though its a training thing I just afriad my car will not pass inspection due to the Kazuma exhuast being louder than alot of things out there. I know its at Route 66 in the middles of cornfields, but I just dont want to be sent home.

Hey VRUM VR6 hope to see you there this weekend. Looks like I will be the only toyota at car event again.

[VRUM VR6]

No worries dude. Keep in mind that everyone is there to do one thing: have fun! If it's that loud just keep it subdued until you're driving. There are a few guys with very loud exhausts like a yellow MR-S in D-Mod that may not have much if any exhaust and others.

I'm sure if they find yours to be out of line they'd make a suggestion for next time most likely. Since you're new - they want to welcome you not dismiss you. BTW, I'll be there with a Celica GT too

[mrfunny107]

oooo.... I hope this will be lots of fun, cant afford to run autobahn once a month.

[renfield90]

Originally Posted by Bill Loring

You'll still be up against the 1990 Civic Si, so it's going to be a tough class. I have had both Brian Priebe and Bob Carpenter tell me that they think the Celica could be competitive, but that no one has properly set one up yet. I don't think I'm the guy to do it, as I don't have the setup experience. But it seems like it should be possible.

Jeff Hurst was pretty close, but had bad luck at Nationals one year and never returned with the Celica (IIRC). This was before the class really exploded though, with the Civics getting trick engine rebuilds and $3,000 shocks. I know people who used to have competitive Civics that have quit the class now due to the rising costs you need to keep up. conehugger took his Celica pretty far too, but this was after the class exploded.

STC basically exists to segregate the Civics into their own little corner until the class dies. The SCCA didn't deal with the problems in the old ST fast enough, IMO - the Civic is a freak perversion of the ruleset, from an era where everything was a dealer option (and thus can legally be removed). The other cars in STC are cars that will upset the STF apple cart but aren't fast enough to hang with STX. It sucks, because it's a graveyard class.

[Bill Loring]

renfield90: Agreed on all counts. Didn't intend to dismiss the efforts of others who have made the attempt, sorry about that. They have done better than I would have. It seems like all of the ST classes have a couple of "golden years" when the class is new, and the drivers are all learning together. STR has been experiencing that. Once things settle in, then the costs start to escalate, as we play "follow the leader" and explore the limits of diminishing returns (AKA engine rebuilds and $3K shocks). It's a tough game.

mrfunny107: Have fun at Rt66! It's a great place to race. I love going there.

[theguy216]

Originally Posted by renfield90

STC basically exists to segregate the Civics into their own little corner until the class dies. The SCCA didn't deal with the problems in the old ST fast enough, IMO - the Civic is a freak perversion of the ruleset, from an era where everything was a dealer option (and thus can legally be removed). The other cars in STC are cars that will upset the STF apple cart but aren't fast enough to hang with STX. It sucks, because it's a graveyard class.

That's disappointing : (. I don't expect to be competitive anyways as I'm just not fast enough of a driver, but it's sad to hear that the celica just can't compete with the civics. I'd consider running in G-stock instead, but the ported header and engine mount inserts would have to be taken off the car first.

Also, I didn't see anything specific in the G-Stock rules, but what are the allowances on Clutch/Flywheels. I assume for clutches anything that is close to OE in style and grip is acceptable and that lightweight flywheels are illegal?

[Bill Loring]

theguy216: Yes, you are correct. You can replace the clutch with a similar model, but you cannot replace the flywheel with a lightweight unit.

From the 2012 Solo rules, section 13: (emphasis added by me)

Alternate components which are normally expendable and considered replacement parts (e.g., engine and wheel bearings, seals, gaskets, filters, belts, bolts, bulbs, batteries, brake rotors, clutch discs, pressure plates, suspension bushings, drivetrain mounts, fenders, trim pieces, etc.) may be used provided they are essentially identical to the standard parts (e.g. have the same type, size, hardness, weight, material etc.), are used in the same location, and provide no performance benefit. The allowance for use of such replacements does not include camshafts, differential covers, or ring-and-pinion sets, nor does it authorize the use of piston rings having different configurations (e.g. “Total Seal”) from those of the original.

You can download the rules here:

http://www.scca.com/solo/content.cfm?cid=44517

[theguy216]

Thanks Bill! I missed that paragraph in the rules. Looks like in order to drop down to G-Stock I'd have to change the clutch which is a no go at this point.

[mrfunny107]

hey how much fuel should I show up with???

[VRUM VR6]

Good question, I recommend a third of a tank minimum. I found out the hard way that running too low ruins your fuel pump eventually. I used to run my Audi quattro down to fumes until my fuel pump burnt out on my final and best run as I crossed the finish line at an INR-SCCA.org event in Gary, IN. Had to wait for a buddy with tow truck access to drive out from Melrose Park to Gary and towed me back at night. Needless to say the car was out of commission for a couple of day$...

[mrfunny107]

Got a talking to from the head guy at the event. He said if I go to a regional or national event my car would be disqualified because its too loud.