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Old 08-31-2017, 11:36 AM   #51
JakesFate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m70b1jr View Post
Assuming we can convert the car to AWD, will it help our acceleration? I currently drive a '01 GT-S Manual with upgraded valve train (Thats it for mods)

Will i see a big difference in the 0 to 60? I'm alllll about acceleration, im not a top speed kinda guy.


Wonít be an increase it might most like be a decrease... unless you are spinning tires it wonít be a improvement... unless you increase torque there wonít be an improvement. If you want better acceleration I might recommend turbocharged.
Along with the transfer case I plan to use the rear will only make 50% what the front makes, the conversion is more for track and corners not about speed

Now if I would recommend a turbo go cheap with the junkyard special... most of the time the price is 15-20 for a turbo

Tl;dr possibly slower/ if you want faster acceleration increase torque with a turbo...
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Old 08-31-2017, 11:55 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by JakesFate View Post
Wonít be an increase it might most like be a decrease... unless you are spinning tires it wonít be a improvement... unless you increase torque there wonít be an improvement. If you want better acceleration I might recommend turbocharged.
Along with the transfer case I plan to use the rear will only make 50% what the front makes, the conversion is more for track and corners not about speed

Now if I would recommend a turbo go cheap with the junkyard special... most of the time the price is 15-20 for a turbo

Tl;dr possibly slower/ if you want faster acceleration increase torque with a turbo...
Boosting is kinda a far stretch. It's something I want to do, but I would have to be on a budget, and reliable with the stock pistons / rods. (I'm not tearing my engine apart again)
I'm gonna make a new post in the boosted section.
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Old 08-31-2017, 12:01 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by m70b1jr View Post
Boosting is kinda a far stretch. It's something I want to do, but I would have to be on a budget, and reliable with the stock pistons / rods. (I'm not tearing my engine apart again)

I'm gonna make a new post in the boosted section.


Iíve heard of people making 250-300 on stock internals... on the turbo thread lists stock internals... if you know how to weld and bend corners in pipes why not diy would be able to keep cost down, the ecumenical is what is most expensive
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Old 08-31-2017, 12:03 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by JakesFate View Post
Iíve heard of people making 250-300 on stock internals... on the turbo thread lists stock internals... if you know how to weld and bend corners in pipes why not diy would be able to keep cost down, the ecumenical is what is most expensive


And after the awd part I will be doing a turbo build diy so people can do it on a budget
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Old 08-31-2017, 12:15 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by JakesFate View Post
Iíve heard of people making 250-300 on stock internals... on the turbo thread lists stock internals... if you know how to weld and bend corners in pipes why not diy would be able to keep cost down, the ecumenical is what is most expensive
i just made a thread
and I do have my welding certificate :o
I just don't know how to bend.

This is a far stretch, but every year, we have a car meet where I live (Charlotte) called Tuner Evolution. My dream is to have a car registered in the meet. THis year there was 2 celicas! (One was a GTS 6 speed and the other was a GT Auto). My goal by my senior year is to have one registered, here's my plans.

- Intake / maybe boosted
- exhaust
- stage 2 cams
- tune
- AWD (Maybe)
- TRD Kit
- New paint job
- some coilovers and lower it
- new wheels tires

It's a far stretch, considering im a college student but i think it'll be possible in a few years.
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Old 08-31-2017, 12:22 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by m70b1jr View Post
i just made a thread

and I do have my welding certificate :o

I just don't know how to bend.



This is a far stretch, but every year, we have a car meet where I live (Charlotte) called Tuner Evolution. My dream is to have a car registered in the meet. THis year there was 2 celicas! (One was a GTS 6 speed and the other was a GT Auto). My goal by my senior year is to have one registered, here's my plans.



- Intake / maybe boosted

- exhaust

- stage 2 cams

- tune

- AWD (Maybe)

- TRD Kit

- New paint job

- some coilovers and lower it

- new wheels tires



It's a far stretch, considering im a college student but i think it'll be possible in a few years.


I might have to post over there and see if I can help out, but if your doing cams why not turbo, and if you want to tune sounds like it might not be that troublesome. Sounds awesome good job and good luck Iíll try to help out if I can.
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Old 09-19-2017, 08:41 AM   #57
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Any updates?
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Old 09-19-2017, 08:52 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by m70b1jr View Post
Any updates?

Currently I am trying the swap in a c59 thanks to my sibling they recently got a celica with no trans in it, Taking this as a opportunity to change it out I found a place in town that will sell me just the diff for a reasonably price if I trade in the diff. It finally got here and at first I will not be posting anything on here about the process... because I would like to have at-least been in the rodeo before telling you all detailed stories about it. (Just as a note) This is not a awd diff because I am not completely ready to do this on my Daily. This is the rav4.1 fwd lsd diff... This makes the cost $5 to do a lsd swap rather than other prices. It being so cheap is why I thought about tackling this task. I will update later this month on if the rav4 diff
- Fits
- Stable
- Reliable


Sorry to everyone who wants more info on the project, this is a big project takes a lot of planning and backup plans. We are trying to do this right here, So it might take a little bit longer.... Just will have way less headaches.

Thank-you all for reading,
Jake.
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Old 11-30-2017, 05:56 PM   #59
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How is your progress with this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JakesFate View Post
The conversion would be more like Legos if I had the automatic version since there is a place to mount the transfer case on the c60,c59 there are no mounting holes. So only way to get it to mount is to source a new transmission. Which is the next step I am looking at pulling it from a 99 Camry v6... Very easy to find at my local junk yard
You mentioned here you believe the conversion may be easier with an auto tranny. How true is this?

I understand that AWD would only be a benefit with x amount of torque, and obviously thats an issue with the auto. But what if you had say:

A built IPT U240E w/ upgraded spring phantom grip, torque converter and valvebody
A complete 2.0L 2ZZ Stroker with P&P
3" I/H/E
Stage 2 MWR cams (bigger small lobe)
And an appropriately sized turbo?

I'm sure that'll get it moving

For the sake of this, lets assume the GTS is already equipped with these mods and is now just looking for the AWD to exceed traction limitations on turbo power (probably one of the few, if not the only real reason you would venture down this path)

Lets also forget cost of said setup (not the AWD setup, we obviously want to find the cheapest effective avenue). The way I see it, if you're able to put that 500hp to the ground and beat (some) stupidly expensive supercars, its worth it, true?

Now, I'm not debating auto vs manual here (probably better with the taller, built auto gears at that power anyway). If it works with the auto, we can go from there

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Old 11-30-2017, 09:12 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by DatGTS00 View Post
How is your progress with this?



You mentioned here you believe the conversion may be easier with an auto tranny. How true is this?

I understand that AWD would only be a benefit with x amount of torque, and obviously thats an issue with the auto. But what if you had say:

A built IPT U240E w/ upgraded spring phantom grip, torque converter and valvebody
A complete 2.0L 2ZZ Stroker with P&P
3" I/H/E
Stage 2 MWR cams (bigger small lobe)
And an appropriately sized turbo?

I'm sure that'll get it moving

For the sake of this, lets assume the GTS is already equipped with these mods and is now just looking for the AWD to exceed traction limitations on turbo power (probably one of the few, if not the only real reason you would venture down this path)

Lets also forget cost of said setup (not the AWD setup, we obviously want to find the cheapest effective avenue). The way I see it, if you're able to put that 500hp to the ground and beat (some) stupidly expensive supercars, its worth it, true?

Now, I'm not debating auto vs manual here (probably better with the taller, built auto gears at that power anyway). If it works with the auto, we can go from there


Hypothetical situations usually mean people are afraid to ask the question, No no a auto ďcouldĒ be done and it could actually be done a lot simpler, just a higher cost. There are also two different paths you could take. Changing out the diff in the auto transmission, then finding a way to bolt it to the transfer case(which is the path Iím on here) or swap it out for a different tranny which means you would need to remap the ecu. Not fun. The easier part for the auto people is there is a flatter face making it ďpossibleĒ to add a couple of studs when adding the transfer case... the problem with that I think your asking? Would it help when wanting to put power to the ground, yes yes it would, but with a higher final drive and Iím assuming there is a 60-40 split instead of a 50-50(donít quote me on that it has yet to be tested) depending on what diff you would get you in theory could get a 140u tranny diff and increase your top speed, but take away from the back wheels. That is where people could choose higher top speed and lower rpm, but less torque. I would say the u151f tranny would be the best in keeping it similar with about a 8-10% increase in torque. If you get into the 4.0 final drive like I am thinking of doing you would notice a drastic decrease in power. The manuals just have the possibility to put down more torque to the rear wheels.

Tl;dr manual has more torque capabilities, auto is easier because of the matrix awd tranny with a possible ecu flash... although not necessary because in theory you can swap bell housing and diff for it to work.


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Old 12-09-2017, 12:08 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by JakesFate View Post

Tl;dr manual has more torque capabilities, auto is easier because of the matrix awd tranny with a possible ecu flash... although not necessary because in theory you can swap bell housing and diff for it to work.
I disagree with last paragraph, lower lift engagement and tuning the f/i setup would be a real mess for auto tranny.

I know that's not your project just my observation. It is possible to flash a Matrix/Corolla due to the faulty '03-'04 recalls I presume. If so, you need to create maps.

I address every issue with the A140e, built into an A540h,(AWD) but the trans controller (ECT) halted this idea due to a large oversight on my part.




As it turns out there was a non-ECT A140l (old school) variant in other parts of the world and overseas, (possibly rare) with 1zz/2zz bolt pattern, it might even help when the lower block interferes, blah blah blah.


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Old 12-09-2017, 11:45 AM   #62
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I disagree with last paragraph, lower lift engagement and tuning the f/i setup would be a real mess for auto tranny.

I know that's not your project just my observation. It is possible to flash a Matrix/Corolla due to the faulty '03-'04 recalls I presume. If so, you need to create maps.

I address every issue with the A140e, built into an A140h,(AWD) but the trans controller (ECT) halted this idea due to a large oversight on my part.

As it turns out there was a non-ECT A140 (old school) variant in other parts of the world and overseas, (possibly rare) with 1zz/2zz bolt pattern, it might even help when the lower block interferes, blah blah blah.

3s adapter plate for u240e guys, sorry.
I will look into u341 next time if it's even useful.




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I know Toyota uses different trans in different countries, at my local tranny shop when I first started this thread they showed me a u341f which the u341e was used in the gt, as far as I can tell I have been in the junk yard fixing my car after a accident, I usually would see the u240 or the u341, I do agree with you about the a series of transmission and I love how helpful your write ups are, but I should clarify that I think the conversion would be easier with a u series transmission. I say this because at least here in the PNW I see that the transfer case is not electronically controlled they have a split of what I think it 70-30 although they claim 50-50 it has yet to be tested, I have talked about the transfer case I bought. It is not etc controlled so maybe I am getting tunnel vision thinking hey donít have a etc controlled one.

U341 is not very strong and would need to be made stronger, as far as my knowledge goes with that trans is the diff and adapter plate could be used on the u240 in the celica, but if you are a lucky gt owner with the u341e the transition would be getting a u341f trans out of the matrix which is the same except for the internal diff.

Again I am not 100% on this since... I have a manual and not too familiar with the autos besides what I see in the junk yards. It is all just my theory.
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Old 12-09-2017, 12:03 PM   #63
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I am going to post this one more time, it is of the matrix awd conversation
forums.genvibe.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=41623

There was no mention of the ecu being changed out he also asks if it would. Again they are using the u341f if that helps clear anything up for anyone.


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Old 12-09-2017, 01:02 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
These transmissions have a governor gear. Unlike the A140E counterpart which is electronically controlled, the A140L uses a plastic governor gear to select which gear to go into. Over time and wear, this plastic gear's teeth shred and eventually cease to be able to control gears. This results in a transmission that can only shift to first and reverse, but not to any further forward gears. Replacement of this governor gear is relatively inexpensive compared to a replacement transmission as it can be serviced without taking the transmission out of the car.

I wrote late last night, but it refers to the shifting of gears. I haven't consider the transfer case but I will dig into that now.

It should be a manual button in the console like the st165 video, so stay tuned..

3s 4a are a dime a dozen in North America
3s-fe all trac system
4a-fe all trac system

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Old 12-09-2017, 11:07 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by JakesFate View Post

U341 is not very strong and would need to be made stronger, as far as my knowledge goes with that trans is the diff and adapter plate could be used on the u240 in the celica, but if you are a lucky gt owner with the u341e the transition would be getting a u341f trans out of the matrix which is the same except for the internal diff.
Not true. U3xxx has different transaxle case bolt pattern if you recall post #25 it will become more clear. All else you wrote was good, our stories are beginning to match up now.

Edit: from post #61


3s adapter plate for *u140f guys, sorry.
I will look into u341 next time if it's even *useable.






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Old 12-09-2017, 11:31 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by 2jz-style View Post
Not true. U3xxx has different transaxle case bolt pattern if you recall post #25 it will become more clear. All else you wrote was good, our stories are beginning to match up now.

Edit: from post #61


3s adapter plate for *u140f guys, sorry.
I will look into u341 next time if it's even *useable.






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Maybe Iím not fully understanding, but in my big green book for the celica says it comes with the u341e on the gt models. In post #32 you explain how the names work for these, with the knowledge I have now of how Toyota does awd systems. The difference is the bell housing to accommodate for the center diff and bolt the transfer case on. That is my basic understanding on how they make a F (application) of the transmissions.

Will research more, but I think weíre on the same page


Also does anyone have information on the Pontiac vibe... what engine does it use for its awd. The transmission is the u341f

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Old 12-10-2017, 11:11 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by JakesFate View Post

Also does anyone have information on the Pontiac vibe... what engine does it use for its awd. The transmission is the u341f
https://www.newcelica.org/forums/showpost.php?p=5865398

True. celica gt had u341e, *traction control mods on 4wd computer (pic)s


Post # 32 was a formula for manual trans. very simple and consistent.

Automatic in post # 25 is more or less non-consistent.

If you think that is confusing check out U6xxx U7xxx in the scion we discuss earlier this year.



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Old 12-15-2017, 07:30 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by 2jz-style View Post
True. celica gt had u341e, *traction control mods on 4wd computer (pic)s


Post # 32 was a formula for manual trans. very simple and consistent.

Automatic in post # 25 is more or less non-consistent.

If you think that is confusing check out U6xxx U7xxx in the scion we discuss earlier this year.



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They could work, but they would need that ecu you posted.

But, with that being said...

Its time for a little update.

So the past few days I have been at the junk yard messing with the rav4, rx300, vibe trans (not a awd vibe) to be specific 2002 rx 1996 & 99 rav4 2004 vibe. All cars were auto not being a problem because we just need the center diff out of them. One thing I noticed right off the bat the A540H in the rav4's resemble the e154 trans almost exactly. I was starting to get a little excited, but once I got the diff out I compared it to the diff in the vibe, Which I Used as comparison since you aren't allowed to take parts into the junk yard. First thing I noticed was the transfer case was giant. Twice the size than the one I got off the rx and the post 00 rav. Besides the diff being significantly bigger There was more teeth making it incompatible. (F***)
Not a problem right there is a rx300 here I quickly rush through getting the trans off(by the way is a pain in the A** every single time) which I got down to about 3 hours each time. Get the diff out trying to understand really how all this works, We have talked previously how it all works.

2Jz which was already 14 steps in front of me I am trying to understand it all myself. 3 things I noticed that I didn't notice before. The module that he just posted is bolted onto the trans. I assumed it was abs/vsc which is common on a lot of newer Toyota's, not including the celica which has no abs or traction control. Still was curious about the diff I was messing with it a little to see how it works. On the bright side it looks like it could work with a small teeth mod, which right now it looks like a bolt on.

As 2jz and I somewhat expected. it is a viscous coupling center differential. Which after getting home and reading more it seems like that is how all there systems are. When the vsc applies brakes to what ever wheel is slipping it starts adding power to the rear. There is a lock mod on many lexus and rav4 forums. Most noticeably the RX,GX and rav4/highlander which they are all kind of like cousins... Body style, not much more than that. (thought I should specify that.) The mod is unplugging the vsc, abs, maf, and iat, weird idk why that would work, but nerveless it only works for a few drives. Damn. So now what? It looks like the rx was equipped with a Torsen LSD version in 99-00 which is probably how I got the lsd diff, but it looks like its only the rear diff. There is alot of talk about this being bad, but it is very similar to how the all trac works, and could probably just use a all trac center diff... If they weren't a thousand dollars.

I'm not saying it is the same exact as the gt4 center diff, but it is most likely built off the same platform.. At least till Toyota figured out how to make vsc(basically a virtual lsd)

the all trac is a 50/50 split all the time, until something slips then it adds more power. With that written alot over at the all trac forums, it brings in the absolute need for a rear lsd diff. (3rd member) without it being a lsd it seems like the viscous center differential (I will be saying VCD for now on) will try to direct more power to the front making it more like a 70-30 split.
So is there a way to trick this?
Well from what I can tell the only way the vcd can tell which is slipping is the resistance from the transfer case. You could and I dont recommend this. Leave the two front axles out and get dust caps making the car RWD. Why would this work? well the center diff would lock up the front diff because it is slipping indefinitely making it only engage the rear wheels, There would probably be a loss in power though you wouldnt get a full 100% power.

So why not use the matrix one? Although it does rely allot on the vsc system. You can effectively bypass all of it if you just never have it connected. As I am understanding now, the vsc will just apply brakes to the wheel that is slipping giving power to the other wheels. Kind of similar to the A-Trac system on most Toyota trucks.

I think at this point I dont really care how the center diff works it works in a 50/50 with the transfer case, It may not be the all trac system 100% but it can be built to act like one.


Now I am thinking about how I will mount the transfer case...

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Old 12-16-2017, 01:40 PM   #69
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Last post was quite long and didn't really explain everything so well, Although there is some good info in there. I am going to give a brief summary and build onto the previous thoughts.

Recently found out the older 96-99 rav4.1 use a different transfer case than the one I got from a rx300. It is quite big probably as big as the e154 gt4 transmission. Already stated that earlier I think, but it would look like this on a 2zz


If you were wondering yes the splines on the diff are different. It is physically bigger.

2). After researching and comparing the c60 diff to a rx300 it using the u140f transmission. The diffs looks very compatible final drive would need to be transferred from the c60, but all looks like it would bolt in.

After research I came across one problem... In 00-03 toyota seemed to switch over to a new center diff. A open diff with a virtual lsd with the use of vsc, abs, maf, and iat.

Which is pretty much why we dont use the matrix one, Don't quote me on this, but it doesn't send power to the rear unless the front slips. (Damn)

3). After researching further I have realized that both the rav4 and rx300 use a viscous center differential with a manual lock... (Sound familiar) Alot like the gt4

Researching further into this I have read many posts (From rx/rav4 owners) That also alot like the gt4 they are both a 50/50 split Viscous center differential. Many of them also discourage locking the diff in high speed scenarios (20mph/ 35kph) as it puts strain on the transmission. It is also not needed

Both the rav4.2 (IE:00-06) and the rx300 pre 2000 use effectively the same system
Quote:
Both automatic and manual transmissions have full-time all wheel drive with viscous coupling locking center differential. Optional Torsen limited slip rear differential
Overall the goal is to build something close to the gt4 platform
Quote:
both systems are full-time AWD with power distribution being 50/50 front and back.the only time that distribution changes is during wheel slip, but at a minimum it is always 50/50 front and back.

In the end there is a possibility that the Quaife Toyota Celica GT4 diff could work, just not with the transfer case I already have.

The transfer case I have off the rx300 has extra teeth to ensure the 50/50 split I will post more information on this along with a recap of post #44

Stay tuned
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Old 12-16-2017, 02:47 PM   #70
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Time to explain how the rx300/rav4.2 and possibly more.



First off I want to state that this relates to the 00-06 rav4 and pre 00 rx300.

After alot of trial and error and trying to understand how to make this work I over looked a few things I want to go back and clarify to maybe help others understand why we are heading in this direction and not using other parts from other cars.



1). I am going to try and explain how the rx300 full time awd system works because that is what I have currently. I will be using the following photo as a reference





Quickly I would like to state that yellow is front axels, blue is rear/ drive shaft/ center diff, Green is the transfer case axle



That being said lets talk a little more of how it all connects and works together. The yellow shows how the front axles bypass pretty much everything and connect straight to the differential. To be more specific the front differential. Nothing new there pretty much everyone should be able to understand that.



The second intermediate axle, the axle in blue is to connect to the center diff, It is how the transmission transmits power to the transfer case which in turn transmits power to the rear wheels. This is a cut away of the gt4 quaife lsd differential to help with a visual





inside the differential there are actually two a front and center(ie; one that connects to the transfer case) So one needs to be hollowed out so that the front axle can connect to the front differential. The center differential axle is hollowed out to do so and to be able to connect to the larger center differential being somewhat independent.



After all that being said that is how I view the newer versions of the awd system are done with the open diff abs controlled systems. Sending power to what ever wheel is spinning and when brakes are applied it is sent to the next available starting with front then moving to rear



Lets dive a little further into the system I have on hand.



The differential isnt a open diff its a viscous center differential meaning that if the front axle(Yellow) spins faster it will in turn drive more power to the center axle(Blue) Which makes more sense. This is a little different than the open diff because rather than sending power to the wheel that is slipping the most it adds power to the center. Sort of like a lsd, but not quite because there is still a split.



At this point you would effectively have on demand part time awd.



Next I haven't really talked about the marking in green. That is what I can only guess is how the part time awd turns in to a full time with a 50/50 split (With more on demand/ wheel slip) It looks like the actual differential connects to the transfer case so that way it is always sending power to the rear. Which it makes this project a little harder... Because that is pretty awesome and sure it would work without it, but then there would need to be a center diff lock... Making awd useless at normal driving speeds(20mph/ 35kph)



I keep saying this, but the more I read about it the more it sounds similar to the gt4 post 88. When most models lost the diff lock. Which effectively is the goal. I want this to stay close to stock, not only parts wise, but the way it handles. I have no fears about how the rx300 transmission holds up as there are tons of reports of people using it off road. It definitely can handle the beating. The rx has a curb weight of 3950lbs and has a gross weight of 5000lbs. It should have no problem thrashing the celica around.



In the post I focus mostly on the rx300, but it is closly the same in the rav4, Difference is pre 00 RX300 had the option of no abs while the rav4 system helps its system with the abs/vsc, A-Trac support. Which would make it a more playable option although... The celica is missing abs



More info soon along with the possible building of the project, Just need to get the pre 00 rx diff... then find a way to mount the transfer case


Edit:

After more reading, this video shows how the gt4 awd works, https://youtu.be/OiVXBazmlWo

This is the system that seems the most reputable and something we can recreate.

Last edited by JakesFate; 12-16-2017 at 10:29 PM..
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Old 12-22-2017, 09:19 AM   #71
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Thanks for the write up, post 2k toyota's are difficult to tune once they integrated trans logic or drive by wire onboard the engine ecm.

I don't quite get some of your facts but at least anyone following along will learn the facts in question here:

1. Where is the viscous located on the rx300 and how do you know that was the case or by what source other than rav rx owners was your research based?

2. 153 mr2 turbo can't mesh with all trac systems and the viscous couple was on passenger side of the transfer gear. Jake may have a point with the non-all trac transfer case.

3, I notice the first gen matix use all-aluminum transfer case but the second gen rx/rav looks like steel if that provides any further clue to 50/50 split.

4. The first gen matrix had viscous couple between the rear diff and prop shaft so.. I'm thinking the rx/rav lsd vcd.. whatever the case, could be inside the bell-housing half. LIKE IT SHOUD HAVE BEEN BEFORE!

5. Does the u140f diff not fit your transfer gear or the open diff was not feasible to the build.. I don't think the u341e was a good comparison since the drive line would the same as c60.

6. I confused the 2wd systems now and then, but I can check the brake hubs on the matrix 4wd next week. I have read the auto/manual diff has no interchangeable ring gear.

I can't post diagrams right now so I will need to edit this later and rather not be quoted yet.

Last edited by 2jz-style; 12-22-2017 at 10:59 AM.. Reason: #5 #6
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Old 12-22-2017, 10:48 AM   #72
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Okay Iíll hold off on the quote, but I️ would like to clear up something.

1. The rx300 uses a center differential with a viscous coupler and if I️ am familiar that is similar in the gt4.

The 00+ rav and 09 matrix both have the u140f in it. I️ may be a little biased because I️ jumped the gun and got the transfer case first. I️ would like to clear up that when I️ talk about the rx300 it also applies to 01-10 rav, 01-03 Highlander, 99-03 rx300, and the 09+ matrix. So what ever I️ find out about these now I️ will refer to by u140f

I️ have purchased the u140f out of a highlander so I️ will try and get it apart and share more in-depth on the diff, but I️ have family coming in.

2. I️ was under the impression that the 153 diff still needed to be changed out to make it work with the transfer case, I️ also have read to much that the gt4/ all track had a center viscous differential not the transfer case.

3. I️ have found out recently that the transfer case diff splines can very, that is why I️ didnít get the a540h tranny from pre 01 rav4. The transfer case is also a lot bigger. It does mesh with the 154 if that helps. It is a set 50/50 split but on slippage more power is transmitted to not slipping thanks to the viscous diff. The u140f also does not have a diff lock so keep that in mind.

4. I️ do have a fsm I️ can send over of the rx and rav. Still trying to find a highlander fsm. It explains how to rebuild the viscous center diff in the bell housing. Yes like it should of been and always should be, but you are correct the viscous coupler on the matrix for some reason was a part of the drive shaft.

I️ do have the u140f now I️ can post some pictures, just canít work too much on the project due to family coming in for the holidays.


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Old 12-22-2017, 01:55 PM   #73
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Looks like I missed a couple of questions... Sorry...

5. The u140f is the same size diff open or not. The reason I want the viscous center differential is I want real full time all wheel drive. A open diff only send power to the rear wheels on front slipping. A lot like people discuss in gts jason's thread about the matrix diff.

This is true for a lot of Subaru's too. Be sure to look it up because even though I want the viscous center diff some people like the open diff.

TL;DR: viscous center diff is 50/50 split that transmits more power on slipping, Open differential is 100/0 split and sends power to the rear on slipping.

5.5 The u140f is the transmission I will be using. Just in 01 the rx switched the internal diff over to the open diff while the others kept it viscous diff.

6. That is what I am a little afraid of now, but changing out wheel hubs, Probably just the bearing so it is cheaper, It looks like the axles may work as is. If a awd rav4 01-10 axles work on the celica then we are clear.

Sorry about not getting these earlier.


Edit:

After a quick search it looks like the u140 parts work in the U240, and U241. Will be looking more into this because the u240 is the gts auto transmission. Does the celica auto axles work with manual? I assume they would

Last edited by JakesFate; 12-22-2017 at 01:58 PM.. Reason: More information
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Old 12-23-2017, 08:44 PM   #74
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Here's pic(s) update from # 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by JakesFate View Post

After a quick search it looks like the u140 parts work in the U240, and U241. Will be looking more into this because the u240 is the gts auto transmission. Does the celica auto axles work with manual? I assume they would
If it came from a 1.8 litre chassis than yes, same drive line minus the ring gear but junkyards ask for presence of ABS, AWD things they need to know when selling parts..

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2jz-style View Post

It should be a manual button in the console like the st165 video, so stay tuned..
Wrong haha..I hadn't posted in quite some time and was getting rusty, so the friction plates push hydraulic fluid onto the lock lever when they spin at faster rate than normal. St165 early japan model had the electric actuator.
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Old 12-24-2017, 10:28 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2jz-style View Post
Here's pic(s) update from # 64

If it came from a 1.8 litre chassis than yes, same drive line minus the ring gear but junkyards ask for presence of ABS, AWD things they need to know when selling parts..



Wrong haha..I hadn't posted in quite some time and was getting rusty, so the friction plates push hydraulic fluid onto the lock lever when they spin at faster rate than normal. St165 early japan model had the electric actuator.


My local junk yard just goes by make and model they donít really care all that much about he details, the rx300 and rag had no abs options, but I️ pulled it off a highlander which does have abs.

I️ knew they were different thatís why I️ got them before, but they look so similar I️ just donít know yet.

I️ wonít be able to work on the project till next year

Family is in town till January 5th

You got the idea of a viscous center, it is slightly different in the later models it pushes against a clutch plates locking in the rear same system used in the later versions of the all trac
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Old 12-29-2017, 11:39 AM   #76
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I also look into the rear diff mount and it's quite simple, but doing this brought up a few diagrams of the current discussion and may be helpful. I can explain the rear diff mount but I will give the OP the first go.

Rx300 front case

Rx300 rear case
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Old 12-29-2017, 12:10 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2jz-style View Post
I also look into the rear diff mount and it's quite simple, but doing this brought up a few diagrams of the current discussion and may be helpful. I can explain the rear diff mount but I will give the OP the first go.

Rx300 front case

Rx300 rear case


The rear mount seems pretty simple. I️ wonít be able to work on it right now, so feel free to come up with a mount. When I️ pulled it off the rx it Had only 4 bolts holding it in. 2 In the rear. Two on the bottom. In post #2 I️ have a image showing it mounted. The diff isnít that heavy so mounting isnít a problem. Just need a couple of polyurethane mounts. Or reuse the old ones.

Love to hear if you have a idea of how to mount
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Old 01-01-2018, 11:57 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JakesFate View Post
The rear mount seems pretty simple. I️ wonít be able to work on it right now, so feel free to come up with a mount. When I️ pulled it off the rx it Had only 4 bolts holding it in. 2 In the rear. Two on the bottom. In post #2 I️ have a image showing it mounted. The diff isnít that heavy so mounting isnít a problem. Just need a couple of polyurethane mounts. Or reuse the old ones.

Love to hear if you have a idea of how to mount


Keep in mind the rear isnít that heavy and is mounted very simple I️n the rx picture of the mount... looks like it is just one in the rear and two on the bottom to keep it from falling down... real simple.
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Old 01-01-2018, 02:40 PM   #79
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I posted the old RAV4 setup because it doesn't have an existing cradle, just a bracket to locate rear subframe.

The late model RAV4 has aluminium control arms to locate subframe. I can only guess at the 09 matrix/vibes.

I should have posted the Rx300 diff, it's similar to supra MKII/GT4 in mounting. It has the existing cradle such as 03 matrix/vibe.

Last edited by 2jz-style; 01-01-2018 at 08:14 PM.. Reason: Rx300 #80
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Old 01-01-2018, 08:07 PM   #80
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I just notice something with the Rx300 subframe. It's rear chassis mounts could locate the celica upper control arms.
Rx300
Now celica lower contol arms are an easy swap with arm assy no.2 although none would be an exact fit, I just found this incredibly sexy.

That would leave two forward towers to be welded to chassis, (need 'em anyway) AND fab two rear platforms that don't exist on the Rx300 sub that in turn, would have been a direct bolt with matrix's rear subframe. Is this correct?

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Old 01-01-2018, 08:51 PM   #81
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Quote:
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I just notice something with the Rx300 subframe. It's rear chassis mounts could locate the celica upper control arms.
Rx300
Now celica lower contol arms are an easy swap with arm assy no.2 although none would be an exact fit, I just found this incredibly sexy.

That would leave two forward towers to be welded to chassis, (need 'em anyway) AND fab two rear platforms that don't exist on the Rx300 sub that in turn, would have been a direct bolt with matrix's rear subframe. Is this correct?


I️ donít know about that. The rear subframe is the same as the altezza... it would probably be easier to weld a mount and brace to the current frame. The mount is a simple brace and rear bushings. Everything else is out of the way as far as I️ see it now. Using the rx300 subframe you would start cutting into the spare tire wheel well. Diff will replace muffler. Cat back? Will need new fuel tank or mod the current one. That I️ think would actually be the easier option
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Old 01-01-2018, 10:38 PM   #82
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Is300/Altezza or same diff maybe? makes no sense, they have upper wishbone control arm and the diffs bolt directly into forward cross beam with no existing cradle.
MK4/GT4/IS300

I know R33 owners that swap the GTR subframe into a GTS-T for hp-boost application. I don't know about that, but there must be a higher reason..

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Old 01-02-2018, 08:08 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2jz-style View Post
Is300/Altezza or same diff maybe? makes no sense, they have upper wishbone control arm and the diffs bolt directly into forward cross beam with no existing cradle.
MK4/GT4/IS300

I know R33 owners that swap the GTR subframe into a GTS-T for hp-boost application. I don't know about that, but there must be a higher reason..


Let me correct myself, they donít share a complete same rear. They do share a similar rear crossmember. So if like you state the bolts line up for the cross member it wouldnít be that hard to weld the mounts you need on.

Rx300 cross member

Last edited by JakesFate; 01-02-2018 at 08:19 AM.. Reason: Added images to post
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Old 01-05-2018, 05:56 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JakesFate View Post
I️ donít know about that. The rear subframe is the same as the altezza... it would probably be easier to weld a mount and brace to the current frame. The mount is a simple brace and rear bushings. Everything else is out of the way as far as I️ see it now. Using the rx300 subframe you would start cutting into the spare tire wheel well. Diff will replace muffler. Cat back? Will need new fuel tank or mod the current one. That I️ think would actually be the easier option


Actually, I own a few specimens to base info from. If you want the most cost efficient way look at the OEM corolla exhaust.

It doesn't have independent rear suspension or subframe in the way of all you mention, minus the axle back cluster f**k issues..
Matrix Awd

Like the Ecm box & shift cables, it's all the preference of the installer, celica has axle back muffler where as corollas reserve that space for the independent rear setup if equipped with rear differential.

Also emission canister goes there, but I can't see anything since my GTS was 3.5" from the T3 turbo to custom magna flow tip with cat delete, I didn't really put that into thought.

Remove spare tire well, better access to rear diff for non street off road only.
Replace fuel cell with less capacity and flip the spare tire well to fire proof.. it won't be under the floor but it's not in the back seat either.

I can get the saddle tank around 180 cnd dollars and didn't really put that into thought either. But muffler and tank are different locations in corollas so try that.

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Old 01-26-2018, 07:01 AM   #85
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Cool project. If you wind up needing to tune the auto trans and control the rear diff we can do that with a Hydra and a standalone trans controller.
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Old 01-27-2018, 02:27 PM   #86
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Glad to see that Dave is in on this

Was thinking the same thing about tuning this bad boy with a hydra. I'm really looking forward to seeing this happen with a u240e.

If successful, this would open the celica up to massive new potential. We could be challenging some SERIOUSLY expensive cars with the right setup.
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Old 02-04-2018, 02:42 AM   #87
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Any updates? Its been a month since the last one, and im dying to see this work!!
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Old 02-20-2018, 03:40 AM   #88
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Can't rush brilliance. I'm sure even if he not actively working on the project he's still putting some brain power towards it. I mean, how could you not? I'd be thinking about this non stop if it was my project

I'd love to know however if you ever did confirm 100% if the U140F diff parts truly do fit into a u240e. This would keep the cost down for me and one of the drivers of my car isn't actually allowed to drive manual (medical reasons)

Also everything seemed smooth(ish) sailing untill your attention shifted to mounting the rear up. Cutting into the spare tyre well is something I'm sure we'd all love avoiding if possible. But hey, if we're fabing up an exhaust, we can cut away some body

Appreciate your work here gents. I feel good about AWD happening this time around and it's good to see you're really pushing for that GT4esque functionality and not just settling. Quality is everything.

This could be big. Good luck

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Old 02-27-2018, 10:56 AM   #89
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Wow I didn't get notified of the latest replies, but thanks everyone for the support. To make a long story short I haven't been able to work on the car with work and the weather either its snowing (I dont have a garage to work in) or I am needed at work(Full time real estate agent) Now that that is out of the way I am taking this week off to get some of the project going again!!!


Anyways This will be a recap of day one!

I followed Smaays guide to get the transmission out you can find that here I dont have the right size socket to remove the axles from the hub so I just left them and took them off the struts and control arm... a lot easier than the other way I might add



At this point I was curious about the other axles which I already had from the lexus... so like anyone else would do I had to put them side by side and see the difference




Besides the bearing on the stock shaft they are the same length and appear to look like the same size... one just elongated.... to be sure I checked the driver side



Well I'll be damed they are almost exactly the same there is no way right? Could we really just get away with changing out the stub? To investigate even further I moved to the u140 which looking back is way too heavy to be lifting alone... I tore that thing apart as fast as I could. Only 17 bolts around the outside holding the bell housing on.







So there we have it the diff that has been talked about way too much in this thread... Seems kinda like a letdown after it being hyped up so much.. Well before any of you ask YES! I did immediately take the diff over to see if the celica axles would in fact mate with the diff...



They have the same teeth. the only difference is the way the other one is elongated... So while we have the car jacked up lets take a look underneath.


Looks pretty straight forward back... will need a different gas tank... and probably a new exhaust... I was thinking 2 or 2.5" I dont believe going higher than 2.5" would benefit... in fact I think it would decrease performance, but that's for another day!



Looking at the headers they may need to be modified, but other than that it looks like the transfer case just might fit there it isn't all that big. So after fighting with the transmission for another couple hours making sure that I would remember where all the bolts would go and smacking the h*ll out of my hand. I got the transmission out the c60 is extremely light I would say others say that it was heavy idk? I got it up on my workbench and can not find my gear pullers so Tomorrow I will be going to harbor freight and getting a new set... along with picking up my gear synchros. Will have another update tomorrow.

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Old 02-27-2018, 10:58 PM   #90
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Recap of day two.... Here is where the fun begins...

I needed to replace my synchros so besides adding a new diff I needed to break down the c60 trans. I followed this guide here.

I recommend putting down something to catch the extra oil.... As I forgot, but I did remember gloves


Felt I should share this there is weird green paint all over my trans... idk why?


I didn't really document the breakdown of the c60 because there is alot of threads on that already. I spent all day doing that and once I got to the point that everyone was waiting for.... It finally hit me.




The differential is way too big... Which is expected I mean I pulled this off a highlander... But lets talk about this for a little. This is just to see if we can make it happen and I did say I would test everything. I didn't really spend all that much on the trans and I can resell it... I think? Does anyone need a u140 with 66k miles? After looking and staring at why was I that stupid. I noticed that there wasn't even a speed sensor ring on there... what the h*ll... I need to get some rest and get back to it in the morning... I will find a way to make this work... Sorry about the u140 problem, but gives us an idea of what we need to do
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Old 02-28-2018, 09:52 PM   #91
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A word to describe day three? Stupid.





Alright so today I went back out to the bench and started piecing my trans back together by the way does anyone know why there is random green paint all over the inside of my trans



After that I took a moment at where I went wrong... Turns out a long time ago. So I did some further testing and comparing the transmissions... which confused me even more...









So the diff does work with the transmission. I didn't go wrong there, but the way I thought the diff worked isn't correct. First off excuse me for the bad video, but it is hard to do anything with one hand...



Watch the video here



but it confused me why when I add the intermediate shaft the other axle moves the opposite way... it was also very difficult to move it. At this point I took it out of the diff and put it in the transfer case and moved it. I then wondered if the axle that comes out of the diff is a separate shaft... it wasn't so now I was more confused. They both do the same thing... well that's not 100% true. The center lock is to have the car be awd full time. always sending power to the rear... so whats the need for the intermediate shaft that goes in between them? I dont know for sure. they dont go to separate places... so what would the need for it be. The center lock is active all the time as it is part of the final drive. They both go to the same place and I didnít want to take apart the differential so I suspect inside with The viscous clutch the intermediate shaft is there to send power to the rear on demand/ on slippage which would explain the click and reverse turning there is probably a gear reduction in there making it a 50/50 split. I think there is still a way to salvage the parts I already purchased... mostly will involve that intermediate shaft I show in the second and third picture above. I kind of want to open up the transfer case and see whats going on there, but I am not too sure what kind of gear oil it takes. I should find out. not too much got done today I actually broke a couple clips on the last little bit of putting the trans back together... when I get a lsd I will not be happy to do this again.... theres actually a easier way to do it without removing 5/6 gears. Anyway till tomorrow thats today's update

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Old 03-01-2018, 04:22 AM   #92
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That's some good Guinea pigging

On the note of the paint inside the transmission, I think the reasons they do this are:

1: To prevent oil weeping inside the casting

2: To improve drainage

3: To prevent rust

4: Stick any remaining casting sand

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Old 03-02-2018, 05:10 PM   #93
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I think it's suppose to turn under the engine power by (final gear) is the case connected, what side is the axle on? those transaxles cannot be towed or dyno' by conventional way.

I'm working the block clearance design hard.. but rather than go back on a statement I will need to check for any wiggle room on a matrix 4wd, and if that was maxed out there's no point putting this up against the 2zz.

I'm looking up and down but can't see the two fitting even after a light sanding, the 2zz has a duel oil return baffle for some reason, extra oil holes that would otherwise miss the 1zz oil girdle. [IMG]
Those four bosses (right) have no significance that I'm aware of so additional eyes are welcome.. after that is confirmed I will talk about the drain passages in the upper block.


Option: how long to replace the synchro?? need a ton of stuff to make your car auto??

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Old 03-02-2018, 07:55 PM   #94
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The axle is on the passenger side. When I get all the pictures uploaded I will post a day 4 I took yesterday off... I think I can still make this work. I recently pulled parts off a matrix... The engine is further back and the transmission is actually a little different even on a 6speed. Any ideas on that? the diff is closer to the block and the intake is in a totally different spot. Synchro's took me about 5-7 hours... I dont have a press to I was doing it all by hand... long process... and very tiring hence the day off. I wont be making the car auto. Let me know if you want some transfer case dimensions... In fact later I will have a write up of me tearing it down.



This is from the bottom looking up but that ridge may need to be grind down a little where the exhaust mount is.

Let me know what you think of that plan or maybe there is a better way to do ths
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Old 03-02-2018, 08:47 PM   #95
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Yes, but I don't know what ideas you referred to.. the 1zz engine isin't further back it's shape is entirely different upper and lower.

5 spd centre house is shape differently so in theory can't house a c60 transaxle, (haven't seen it) but the bell house is identical though.

Air box and battery are reversed, as is the cruise actuator reverses with the brake distributer and by far bigger better engine bay. That's why the intake angle varries (Matrix)

That ridge is part of the upper block too, but an All-trac was said to clear the upper ridge however extend deep into the lower half.

So it looks like the tables are reverse once again because your transfer case is much taller as it hits the 1zz upper ridge without the 4wd block?

Up side to this is the internal structures of both engines are based off the same cast. 2zz's are yamaha engineered, tuned very differently, I have a few ideas in mind.

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Old 03-02-2018, 11:24 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by 2jz-style View Post
Yes, but I don't know what ideas you referred to.. the 1zz engine isin't further back it's shape is entirely different upper and lower.

5 spd centre house is shape differently so in theory can't house a c60 transaxle, (haven't seen it) but the bell house is identical though.

Air box and battery are reversed, as is the cruise actuator reverses with the brake distributer and by far bigger better engine bay. That's why the intake angle varries (Matrix)

That ridge is part of the upper block too, but an All-trac was said to clear the upper ridge however extend deep into the lower half.

So it looks like the tables are reverse once again because your transfer case is much taller as it hits the 1zz upper ridge without the 4wd block?

Up side to this is the internal structures of both engines are based off the same cast. 2zz's are yamaha engineered, tuned very differently, I have a few ideas in mind.
I was talking about the 04 matrix xrs which has the 2zz it isnt awd I was just noticing the subtle differences in engine/trans.Dang it should fit with a little of clearance I just wanted to have that option in case of any problems. I dont know about the transfer case being too tall? the part number for the transfer case is 412-55571 I believe.
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Old 03-02-2018, 11:50 PM   #97
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Day 4. Ooh boy today we take a look at the transfer case.

Just a note I wasn't able to completely finish today (more on that later) So up on the workbench today... as the transmission gaskets dry. is the transfer case



The subject on the dissection table. I was curious what the internals of this oh so important thing so today I wanted to take it apart and see if we cant re engineer something to work.



First thing I noticed was that one side was noticeably smaller than the other... also a bearing where the stock passenger shaft would also have a bearing. The shaft that sends power to the transfer case was too large to fit into the c60 diff. so we need to find a way to send power from the diff/ passenger shaft to the transfer case.




After taking the cap off all I could see is the roller bearing.



After getting the internal diff out I had to take off the part I mentioned earlier showing how the diff connects... Now that I see it all taken apart I dont know if it is all that needed.




The shaft will fit into one side but not the other. at this point I was thinking I could connect the passenger drive axle to the shaft to make it work. YAY, but then under further thinking I knew I would need a better option. one that I could easily take apart the axles and not take out the entire transmission every time.


I thought that if I just swapped the side the gear was on I could flip the diff making it work... yeah that wouldnt work the diff is definitely not asymmetric, but...


It was at this point that I was thinking if that one side will come off maybe the shaft on one side isn't actually a part of the diff... I dont have a good picture of it but it looks and feels like its just pressed in there... but whats the plan?


The shaft fits though on one side so if there is a way to get the axle all the way though. we could effectivly mark where the parts line up and weld the shaft to the axle making it connect to both the front axles and the rear sending 100% power to both. After I get a lsd then this option would be better, but this would still be a pretty cool awd almost like a 50% split then 100% on slip ? correct me if I am wrong. Only one problem here




The shaft doesn't fit over the stock celica axle. So I think I will either need the axle milled a little(I dont have a lathe) or I just trust the rx300 shaft and test it with the celica diff... It worked the other way around so it should work right? Anyway I wanted to call a couple of metal shops to get a small aluminum plate... which paused the project for today.

What do you think is this a bad idea? looking at the u140 diff all the axles are connected this also would help tremendously with the cost. as you could keep the stock axles.
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Old 03-04-2018, 07:51 PM   #98
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Could you do a quick edit with some terminology that is familiar to figure #76
I must have missed a dozen steps like how does the *lock sleeve interact with the intermediate shaft(s) does the u140 diff push out onto the lock sleeve when slip occurs?

That would increase the rear torque amount and it's unclear if this was 100/0 normally (matrix) 50/50 slip.

All trac slip situation can be 0/100 but 50/50 normally.

I wonder if the c160 has what you need because I don't follow a word of this. How would you use the final drive? I could use the parts at a later time.

Great job getting the axles confirmed!
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Old 03-04-2018, 08:40 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by 2jz-style View Post
Could you do a quick edit with some terminology that is familiar to figure #76
I must have missed a dozen steps like how does the *lock sleeve interact with the intermediate shaft(s) does the u140 diff push out onto the lock sleeve when slip occurs?

That would increase the rear torque amount and it's unclear if this was 100/0 normally (matrix) 50/50 slip.

All trac slip situation can be 0/100 but 50/50 normally.

I wonder if the c160 has what you need because I don't follow a word of this. How would you use the final drive? I could use the parts at a later time.

Great job getting the axles confirmed!


I made a quick edit, there is a way to make it a straight 50/50 split. The only difference With the c160 is that it has a lsd making it able to transmit power to all wheels on slipping which is also what the viscous clutch pack does in the u140 final drive/ diff. My theory is to connect it to work alongside with the passenger axle. The u140 differential works very similar which makes me believe it will work, but the split really depends on that transfer case gear ratio


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Old 03-16-2018, 08:44 PM   #100
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So the elongated passenger shaft does not pass through the 4wd carrier bracket nor transfer case? Vs. the Highlander passenger shaft does not fit the celica hub?

Here's the pics from last weekend but JDM shops have some liabilities and I couldn't get any further at closer look.


He said they sold a JDM 2zz auto on a USDM 1zz 4wd traded in which is not very business sound unless it was for a friend doing the 2wd conversion.

If you throw some ideas out here I'll better know what to look for. I can't tell if the hubs are 4wd but disc is 275mm
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