Not that this will stop the seemingly endless stream of questions regarding how to build a NA (Naturally Aspirated) 7th Gen, but here you are - this is the recipe and order that makes sense. Feel free to ask logical questions and make any relevant suggestions
If you have a GT, buy a GTS or swap in a 2ZZ. It will make more power stock than your GT will, with $8K in mods.
Now that we have that established - here is the rest of the formula. The dollar amount represents a rough estimate of the total amount you will have to sink into the car to get to that point.
Daily Driver $50 - $3500
Step 1 - Injen CAI (AEM or E-bay w/ Blue bomber mod if you don't intend to continue to step 5 and beyond.)
Step 2- Exhaust - Magnaflow - RSR, something free-flowing. TRD is not free-flowing.
Step 3 - DD Performance Research Intake manifold with Q45 Throttle Body
Step 4 - Ceramic coated PPE race header with NO cat.
If you can't afford PPE, then Ceramic coated ported stock header with decat
Step 5 - Lightweight flywheel
Weekend Warrior $3500 - $5500
Step 6 - Power FC w/ higher rev limit
Step 7 - Cams - piper stage 3s.
Ferrea or MWR valves and springs
Circuitworx oil pump gear
The underdrive pulley on the alternator
Entry-level race spec $5500- $9500
Step 8 - Ported & polished head
Bored out throttle body port matched to intake manifold
DD Performance Research short runner Intake manifold port matched to head
Header port matched to head
Mahle 12.3:1 pistons
Polygon or Swain ceramic coating on the underside of the head and valves & top of the piston
Polydyn oil dispersant on crank and rods
A/C delete
Underdrive on the water pump
Injectors
Fuel Pump
MWR bearings
Head and block studs
Crower rods (lighter than stock)
Serious Race spec $9500 - $16,500
Step 8 - Custom Race spec Intake manifold (ITBs optional)
Carillo rods
lightened crank
13.0:1 or higher CR wiseco pistons
Darton / MWR sleeved block
Custom CAI / air delivery system
Pro race / Baller
Step 9 - MWR Dry Sump
Lightweight clutch disc and pressure plate
Electric Power Steering Conversion
Custom Electric water pump
Titanium Valves, retainers & keepers
Titanium Rods
Custom race header with Burns collector and straight-through titanium exhaust or open non-merge header
The Ebay CAI/Boosted2.0 Ported Header/Ebay Exhaust (with or without resonator) will all cost under $800 versus going with the more brand name oriented setup that grows to just about $2,000.
Where would the street manifold you're making go? Stage 2?
Nice thread!!! But here's the big question...will we be able to hit 200 whp at stage 2 instead of stage 6? :rofl:
I am aware of the pricing differences - hence the price spread.
Street manifold isn't on there because it doesn't exist yet. When it does we will see. If it works well enough with the stock ECU will determine its placement.
200 WHP at stage 2? What exactly have you been smoking?
and something to note... removing the A/C from the car just removes weight. It's not really a hp stealer unless your compressor is seized. the pully will freewheel as if it were a second idler pulley unless you have the A/C activated and the clutch engaged. Also, Even if it were activated with the A/C on max, It would deactivate on WOT.
Removing the AC dies add power - its been proven on a dyno. You still have to spend energy to spin the pulley on the AC unit even if the A/C is not running. Additionally removing the condenser slightly improves the cooling ability of the radiator.
I'm talking about power production ONLY - not drivetrain or suspension or anything. If you want to talk abotu putting it to the ground then yes, uprated clutch, LSD, light wheels, better tires, etc would all be good choices. But this thread is simply about power production.
now how much of this will be pointless if you decide to go turbo or s/c?
that's what i'd like to know (which stuff on the list i can go with that i can still use on the turbo)
It is a decent exhaust at the 160-170 WHP level. Above 170 you really want something less restrictive. It will of course be louder - thats the tradeoff with exhaust. Power = noise. (Noise does not always = power though)
The Ebay CAI/Boosted2.0 Ported Header/Ebay Exhaust (with or without resonator) will all cost under $800 versus going with the more brand name oriented setup that grows to just about $2,000.
Where would the street manifold you're making go? Stage 2?
Nice thread!!! But here's the big question...will we be able to hit 200 whp at stage 2 instead of stage 6? :rofl:
and something to note... removing the A/C from the car just removes weight. It's not really a hp stealer unless your compressor is seized. the pully will freewheel as if it were a second idler pulley unless you have the A/C activated and the clutch engaged. Also, Even if it were activated with the A/C on max, It would deactivate on WOT.
why would you want to destroke the motor?? There is a balance you need to keep...Keep in mind you're moving a car...you need some torque, believe it or not
now how much of this will be pointless if you decide to go turbo or s/c?
that's what i'd like to know (which stuff on the list i can go with that i can still use on the turbo)
Id doesn't ADD power - it takes less away. The flywheel is mass that the engine needs to use energy to accelerate. The more mass the engine needs to move the less power is ultimately available from any given power stroke. Lighter flywheels allow faster acceleration. Same holds true for underdriving or eliminating various accessories.
Nothing is a MUST. Decat is worth 5 HP at I/H/E level. Its worth even more when you add in ECU, cams, head work, etc. Its a flow restriction and flow = power.
i thought you couldn't use a ppe race header with a turbo?
can you also answer why the ppe header for the 00 won't work with the 03+?
i wanted to get a ppe header for my 00, but it'd be pointless if i traded my celi for a 05 celi.
Correct - but you can easily take the header off and sell it - high compression pistons are a royal pain in the rear to replace.
The 03+ uses an air injection system - the PPE header is not equipped with the distribution pipe to make that system functional unless you custom order it like Kortik did.
so cold air intakes would require the bb mod, is this with or without a cell? and whats the story about short rams, i have a KN short ram and it never gave me a cell. would i be loosing power if i dont do the bb mod?
the power FC would work well with any intake bb mod or not right?
The BB mod sucks for making power, but the larger diameter custom or Injen CAI really require a tuneable ECU to avoid bogging. If you never intend to install a tuneable ecu then the BB mod or AEM are the way to go.
Short rams are what they are. They tend to suck plenty of hot air from the engine bay and a lot of them have issues with proper metering of air due to the MAF's proximity to the bend in the intake. That being said, no, the BB mod will probably not make more power for you unless your fuel trims are really bad at the moment.
What would you say is the best performing exhaust that would still let your mom ride in the car with you occasionally? Last I was reading TRD seemed to be the best to get some performance but not be a cop magnet, but does one of the higher flowing exhausts at least damp some sound?
And I'm assuming the decat is only for states with no emissions tests, right?
TRD is probably the best for a quiet ride, although Magnaflow is not horrible. RSR and the straight through stuff is all very loud, but this thread is about making power NA. NA power is loud. End of story.
Decat is not legal anywhere except for racing applications. Same thing with the Power FC. The decat is illegal, cheap and makes power. You make the decisions from there - I'm not your conscience, I'm a gearhead.
Please notice stroker is conspicuously absent. Strokers make sense for turbo or supercharged, but not NA. The rev limitations caused by increasing the rod angle and pistons speeds aren't worth the tradeoff in displacement
This is a good point if your wanting to get peak HP numbers. Although, as you already know, my opinion is ultimatly baised torwards the stroker, but it is for a couple good reasons. Everyone (tuners) has a mind set of what they want out of thier car when they start building. It all is in what the person likes, and desires out of thier celica.
Although the stroker in N/A has its pro's and con's. Some may say the con's outweight the pro's, unless some of the con's don't matter to you much. Like less peak HP, limited rev to a mere 8,300 - 8,500 or so. But I'd LOVE more tourqe, i'd LOVE to not have to wait for lift, or always want to race from a roll. I still get quiet decent max WHP, while i still earn a very nice bump in tourqe. MWR 'qouted' me rougly around 235WHP totally built with PFC and a tune they are willing to help me tweak and somewhere around 200WHP with just the emanage ultimate and stage 2 pipers. I get to keep all the stock fuel system aswell.
I respect a 9k revving 2zz-ge for what it is, but I'd personally rather have a stroker for my daily driver, and a little tourqe in my routine. Each to his oen.
Ultimatly I don't think the stroker should be absent. Its an available mod that may suit some to thier liking, like me.
Peak power and a wider power band at a higher rev range are what NA performance is all about. For drag or road race these are the things that win races. "Good mid range" is something for daily drivers or large displacement V8s, not 1.8L race engines.
If you want more torque above all else then a sub 2.0L NA build is a very bad place to start.
If you think you are going to make 235 WHP on 12.5:1 compression with a 8500 rev limit, stage 2 pipers, stock intake and a stroker then I have a bad feeling you're cruising for dissapointment.
Gary @ MWR was meerly telling me that there are more N/A 2zz strokers out there than what meets the eye. They've had a couple on thier dyno's before. I'd tend trust the people that build these strokers on a semi normal basis for some 'basic' WHP estimations.
You give alot of good info Boosted, don't get me wrong. It just amazes me how you and redliner both think that stroking the 2zz is basically thowing the 2zz in the trash. Its only a 500-700 RPM lower limit, and I can't go stage 3's. I'm sure i'll live and I think the extra tourqe is worth it in my opinion.
I'm not going for crazy tourqe, but putting a little touqe into the motor, never hurt i'm sure. I'm not going for pure race. Just a powerfull daily.
Its not just about what you can make on a dyno today, but keeping the motor together in a race / high performance applications. I will break it down for you.
A stroker is called a stroker because it increases the stroke, or distance a piston travels in order to increase effective displacement. This is done by making the crank throw, or distance between the crank pin centerline and rod pin centerline longer which in turn causes the rod to move farther up and down... and also side to side.
If you start looking into high power to displacement ratio NA motors and you will find a few common things. Namely short stroke and high revs. There is a very good reason for this which Jesse touched on. It comes down to 2 factors - rod angle and pistons speeds. Forgive my MS paint wizardy - but here is a graphical example of the 2 concepts:
Looking at the top graphic you can see the difference in rod angles. The reason this happens is the longer crank throw I mentioned. The issue with this is side load on the rod and bearings. The more the rod moves side to side the more vibration you have, and also the more load on the bearings. the smaller the stroke is the smaller the range the bearings operate in gets, and the speed at which they move decreases.
Looking at the bottom graphic you see the the difference in distance travelled by the piston in a given revolution. Obviously the longer stroke means the piston has farther to travel. What you may not realize is how much of a difference this makes to how fast the piston has to move. The stock 2ZZ geometry is a 3.23" bore and a 3.35" stroke. The stroker kit increases that stroke to 3.6". Ok - now lets think about 8500 RPM. For each revolution the piston moves up and down its full stroke one time. So the stock 2ZZ moves 6.7" and the stroker moves 7.2". Now do that 8500 times in a minute. You are looking at piston speeds of 79 FPS normal versus 85 FPS stroker and total distance traveled of 53.9 miles in an hour stock and 57.9 miles in an hour stroker. You have to spin a non stroker to 9134 RPM to reach those pistons speeds and even so its way easier on the engine because the rod angle is so much lower. So no matter what speed you are running at the non stroked engine is not working nearly as hard as the stroker is at the same speed. The faster you move a piston the higher the inertial load and friction losses become. Also the higher the wear gets. This is why I don't reccomend a stroker for a NA race engine thats going to see abuse.
Another reason is useable power band. Cammed and built right an NA 2ZZ can make GOOD power from probably 5000 - 9500 RPM. When you are road racing or in autocross the ability to stretch a gear from time to time is huge due to the advantages of gear multiplication.
Its true that the Powerhouse intake has smoother bends, but the Injen, were it properly designed, should yield better real world results. The main reason is that it has a very long section of straight pipe. The MAFS will read the best if it has a good section of straight pipe before and after it. Injen for some stupid reason placed the MAFS in the middle of a bend, which is what screws up everything so badly. The MAFS should be placed dead center in the straight section of the pipe, preceeded by vanes to eliminate turbulence. My upper intercooler pipe is for the most part designed this way (shop didn't completely follow where I told them to place the MAFS boss):
Notice the similarity to the Injen intake?
The other completely overlooked design benefit of the Injen intake is the fact that it bends up where the filter attaches. This does a few things:
1. Locates the filter up in a dead air space behind the bumper. It is better to draw air from a dead air space then it is to try and draw air from a turbulent air stream like the AEM.
2. The location of the filter also keeps it cleaner for a longer period of time than the AEM, which locates the filter right where it can get sprayed with road grime and such.
3. The Injen filter is located several inches higher than the AEM, making the intake much less prone to hydrolock.
You mentioned that the BB mod is a restriction, and should be deleted, but also suggested that maintaining the turbulence-reducing vanes before the MAF sensor would be desirable (and indeed, it should be)... this advice is a little bit contradictory...
Do you mean that the stock plastic vanes (i.e., BB mod) are unnecessarily large and that much narrower vanes would work just as well to reduce turbulence, while minimizing airflow restriction?
Ok now i have a question and i know those that have a turbo system can answer this for me. I dont know jack about turbo's or S/C's. My motor is bone stock and was going to do the DD set up maybe up to step 6 for the time being until i can afford another motor to fully mod. the question is can i do a turbo set up on stock internals? The engine has about 112k on it. what would i need to do to be able to run turbo on a stock motor safely without seriously damaging the motor? Also what brand of lightweight flywheel or does that mater and what stage clutch to go with the flywheel. Im about do for a new clutch so ill do both at the same time.
I don't think this is the right thread to post that question buddy .. Go post in the performance section. Better yet, do some search before, this kind of topic is beaten to death!!
I don't know the 1zz well enough. I'll let others tell you. But, it seems like a waste to me. I would not hesitate to go with a turbo if I had a GT ...Especially with the price on "turbo-kits" systems those days .. Otherwise, a swap to 2zz is a good investment.
With the GT-S, it's a good start N/A and it's the opposite. I don't want to detune it (like lower compression, the whole concept of VVT tuning with two profiles cams ..) to then get higher numbers turboed. But one could argue the 2zz has beefier rods which makes it interesting ..
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Related Threads
?
?
?
?
?
NewCelica.org Forum
5.6M posts
59.1K members
Since 2001
A forum community dedicated to all 7th Generation Toyota Celica owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about modifications, troubleshooting, engine swaps, maintenance, and more!