QRP oil pan for fixing the 2ZZ oil starvation issue? (solved)

rushnerd · Nov 12, 2022

From what I've read, the oil starvation issue is mostly limited to the track on racing tires. However, I would definitely like to reduce any risk I can.
Just wondering if anyone has used this product. It's going to be either this or the 1ZZ oil pan, Moroso is way overkill for this.

QRP Oil Pan - 2ZZ-GE - Direct Replacement with Baffle

Brand new QRP oil pan. This is a specially made steel pan that bolts right up to any 2ZZ-GE engine but includes a 1ZZ-style oil baffle for improved oil control and reduced foaming. While this provides some benefit it's not in the same league with the high capacity baffled Moroso oil pan, which is th

www.monkeywrenchracing.com

Sheik Ya Bootie · Nov 12, 2022

what is your application, what are you wanting to do with it?

You’re 2zz sump is fine for normal or ‘spirited’ driving. High G long right handers become an issue.

this sump is seemingly no different to the 1zz sump.

replace your water pump, hoses and radiator before changing sumps as a ‘just because’

rushnerd · Nov 12, 2022

Sheik Ya Bootie said:
what is your application, what are you wanting to do with it?

You’re 2zz sump is fine for normal or ‘spirited’ driving. High G long right handers become an issue.

this sump is seemingly no different to the 1zz sump.

replace your water pump, hoses and radiator before changing sumps as a ‘just because’

Just spirited driving.
I'm not aware of how common the issue is other than it gets brought up a lot in GTS talk. Of course I'd rather not do it, but the thought of oil starvation does makes me nervous.

actionseeker · Nov 12, 2022

I don't want to get too in the weeds on a bunch of technicalities, but all I can say is that for a stock application, there's a very good reason the engineers removed the baffle for the 2ZZ pan. It simply wasn't returning oil to the sump fast enough for the performance they wanted. Of course, if you're building an engine for endurance racing something like the Moroso pan would be more fitting since it increases oil capacity. I can't speak for the results you've had using the 1ZZ pan, but I just wouldn't in good conscious tell people to go for it unless they know what they're doing.

I do agree on upgrading the oil pump/gears, regardless of pan. The stock gears will give out pretty easily with even a slight money shift.

Sheik Ya Bootie · Nov 12, 2022

actionseeker said:
I don't want to get too in the weeds on a bunch of technicalities, but all I can say is that for a stock application, there's a very good reason the engineers removed the baffle for the 2ZZ pan. It simply wasn't returning oil to the sump fast enough for the performance they wanted.

So they replaced the pan with tray in the oil with a windage tray up on the main bearing web. This scavenged the spraying oil faster and removed it from the air returning it to the sump ‘faster’. It’s not about suggesting the plate is stopping the oil from returning. The Moroso is exactly the same in that regard with its tray.. we still use the windage tray in its place so effectively what is used is the same but less capacity and less failure leakage. Also no gates in the bottom. (Which would add a restriction to oil returning to the pick up but will trap more in that section. )

rushnerd · Nov 12, 2022

Thanks guys. I think it's funny how the 2ZZ pan gets brought up in lists of serious issues to know about for the GTS and it's why I was scared of it in the first place. I guess it's nothing I really need to worry about after all. The car is an automatic so even in manual mode, money shifting shouldn't be happening.

actionseeker · Nov 12, 2022

The pan is for when you're exceeding 1 g in a corner. You'd have to be going VERY hard to hit that. The people who do pan swaps are the ones tracking the car, street applications typically don't need to worry about it.

rushnerd · Nov 12, 2022

Hah, Garage 54 is always completely insane.

Bitter · Nov 14, 2022

Honestly I've been wondering the same thing and going back and forth about it. I've got some grip, never had any oiling issues but I'm sure I toss my car around enough that if I was in a sustained turn I could run into problems. I know it's a big issue with MR2's that swap to 2ZZ and are tracked. What did Lotus do to combat the issue?

There's also this other pan I've bumped into from time to time

TOC Wet Sump Oil Pan V1.1 2ZZ-GE – BOE Fabrication

Our TOC (Total Oil Control) Wet sump oil pan for the 2ZZ-GE 1.8L 4 cylinder is a great addition for the street or track car looking for superior control of the oil in the engine while increasing the volume as well. This pan is a sure fire solution to mitigating the likelihood of a loss of oil...

www.boefab.com

gPAN3 — InoKinetic

Simple, Proven & Reliable Oil Control! The gPAN3 is a must if you track your Lotus. This is a direct replacement for your stock pan and will make oil starvation a thing of the past. A heavily-baffled cavity reduces vertical oil slosh. Additionally, the pan has been tweaked for clearance to

www.inokinetic.com

actionseeker · Nov 14, 2022

From the reading I've done, it seems like for any stock/street application, it's best to just leave the regular 2ZZ pan since you're not very likely to exceed the 1 g it was designed for. Anything pushing that requires an upgraded pan, but it would have to be one that doesn't hinder the oil return to the sump which the 1ZZ pan does indeed do. I don't know much about the Moroso and BOE pans, but a cursory look seems to show that the edges of the windage tray have more vents for the oil to return through, so I'm guessing they both factor in the flaw of the 1ZZ pan? Hard to say without crazy see-through pan experimentation.

Sheik Ya Bootie · Nov 14, 2022

There are also seeming to be 2 different 1zz sumps, one the same depth as the
and one a little taller. Application depending.
It’s always a good idea the dummy fit and , if required, space the pick up to a better position in the sump.

check out all images you can find of the sumps, the only differences in that windage tray plate is the more expensive ones also have vertical traps to enclose the pick up. which the 1zz doesn’t.

we also run the 1zz about 1/4” to 5//6” over the full mark.

personally I also do not run a catch can.

I believe it’s 1g in a right hand sweeper, tha means the oil is headed to the shallow part of the sump.

*restricts oil getting back “which it does” *
I’m interested in how that statement is backed up. From where?

The 1zz does not run a seperate windage tray, where the 2zz does in the below images.
The 2zz windage tray is there to act LIKE a crank scraper, to scavenge oil from the wind spraying , catch it and speed it’s return as liquid to the sump… in ADDITION to reducing or preventing slosh backing up to hit the crankshaft robbing the engine of power.

with the windage tray right up in its junk it will return oil faster, Not that the tray in the 1zz RESTRICTS the oil return. When we build these we don’t leave the upper windage tray off. Both are used. Both do different jobs.

damn I’ve deleted all my side by side photos of the sumps.

actionseeker · Nov 15, 2022

Sheik Ya Bootie said:
*restricts oil getting back “which it does” *
I’m interested in how that statement is backed up. From where?

From the technical sheet you mentioned earlier "Development of the High Speed 2ZZ-GE Engine". The specific quote is as follows:

squall leonhart said:
As for the 1zz style baffle - MWR are pretty knowledgeable about the 2zz-ge. It seems hard to believe they'd recommend a 1zz style baffle if it was actually counterproductive. BUT...I am certainly not an expert.

Now I should clarify that I don't think the 1ZZ pan is counterproductive, rather that due to it's inherent design it will restrict the rate at which oil can return back into the pan. You only need to look at it to see why. As to weather this really matters all that much is hard to say and requires side-by-side testing, however I see no reason that any stock or street build would ever need a pan upgrade. Once you're tracking the car and going past 1G, then you'll need to account for that by figuring out a way to keep the oil around the pickup at high G. The integrated baffle of the 1ZZ pan would absolutely do this, at the cost of some oil return speed. Keep in mind slower oil return =/= not enough oil returning, and may not even negatively affect performance in a meaningful manner.

Toyota did not specify exactly how a faster oil return leads to higher performance, but imo it's likely just because the 2ZZ is so dependent on oil being circulated that they figured speeding up the return mattered more than keeping oil around the pickup past 1G. I actually wonder if just increasing oil capacity instead of adding a baffle would be more beneficial.

rushnerd · Nov 14, 2022

Thanks a lot guys. I didn't expect this much in-depth detail on the issue.
I just come from the MK3 Supra were toyota screwed up and you need to fix the problem yourself (much like the lift bolts in the Celica here.) So I'm used to having a major engine issue we all need to solve. I'm just glad doesn't seem to be the case this time around.

The engine vibrating the entire car/ reving high at idle sometimes/ and being a big of a slug biting onto the trottle are more of my concerns at the moment. I remember my Camry at only 73K miles needs it's idle intake just before the throttle flap cleaned out completely, so maybe there is something I can do there.

Also not sure how GTS cars normally are, but thing thing is loud as hell and vibrates a lot. Inspection didn't say any mounts were bad though.

Bitter · Nov 14, 2022

You very likely need a new passenger side mount, mine was allowing torque steer pretty bad around 120k miles. Even with a front mount insert it idles better with the new mount than it ever did and it killed my torque steer.

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squall leonhart · Nov 14, 2022

Glad you asked about this. I was also considering going with the QRP pan - I can't justify a Moroso. If I ever track the car it will probably be few/far between, so probably not much more than some spirited driving.

As for the 1zz style baffle - MWR are pretty knowledgeable about the 2zz-ge. It seems hard to believe they'd recommend a 1zz style baffle if it was actually counterproductive. BUT...I am certainly not an expert.

As for mounts. The only issue I had with my previous GT-S was when I first got it (late 2007 with 89k miles) the front mount had no bolt. Other than that they were good at 216k when I got rid of it (summer 2021). That said I need to check the mounts on my current '02 GT-S. Sometimes I feel like maybe something is shifting occasionally under deceleration. In general my '02 feels worse than my '00.

rushnerd · Nov 14, 2022

Yeah, I have a feeling the inspection wasn't done very well. They didn't even notice that the driver door lock actuator is broken (I'm sure that will be cheap LOL, will have to take care of that certainly before I get an alarm installed.) It has to be the motor mounts from what I'm hearing here. Can't imagine that will be a super cheap fix.

squall leonhart · Nov 14, 2022

Yeah, mine has bad actuators on both sides. Never had issues with those on my '00 (honestly, the ONLY issue I had with my '00 was the timing cover leak, and it wasn't bad). I'm assuming maybe these had a harder life due to the Florida heat. I bought actuators...but I've been lazy. Don't feel like tearing the door apart. So, I just use the key or lean over to the passenger side. Not a big deal!

actionseeker · Nov 15, 2022

I got all of my technical info from 2way, along with some of the sticky threads

Here's the full paper if you want it.

Sheik Ya Bootie · Nov 15, 2022

You are absolutely correct in the points quoted in that scan.
Now you interpret it to say:
The oil pan itself is without baffle, this quickens the return.
However the document has a full stop not a comma.

it says :
the figure shows sump and baffle plate mounted on a ladder frame.

The oil pan is without baffle.

This quickens the return.

so.. the baffle plate quickens the return not the sump plate.

now this increases performance…. The only way to reduce performance is to remove or reduce the splash and all the oil floating in the crank area. Exactly what the baffle plate ( think loosely crank scraper) does. And that baffle is left in place doing it’s job.

You cannot increase engine performance but getting the oil back into the sump faster. Watch your Russian video again, see where all that oil is splashed about, imagine the plate in place guiding and directing it away from the crank.

It does not talk about oil pump performance.

designed for up to 1G with the std sump. That’s reasonable for a road car, Toyota don’t have a spec sheet for over 1G because they don’t believe a road car is doing that.
So we use the 2zz baffle plate for up to 1G and the baffle in the sump to keep the oil more around the pickup.

Better again with the trap doors but not required

Sheik Ya Bootie · Nov 15, 2022

This car gets over 1G. On semi slicks and coil overs. Overlay is grainy up the top.

not on the road. It’s even a 2zz celica

over 1g is RH sweeper, up hill and the track goes from awesome camber to off camber in the crest

Bitter · Nov 15, 2022

I used to have an accelerometer app on an Ipod touch, I was hitting peak .7 lateral on sport all seasons with just a rear sway bar and rear tower brace on the street. Now with all I have I should absolutely see what I'm doing if I can find somewhere safe to check that out. I seem to recall a very old magazine article saying they got .8 on the skid pad with the standard summer tires it came with.

actionseeker · Nov 15, 2022

Apparently the stock tires Celicas initially came out with were pretty bad, so I'm pretty sure most modern tires are pushing us close to 1G if not more.

Sheik Ya Bootie · Nov 15, 2022

I went to get more photos of the sump side by side, but my 2zz sumps went to the scrap dealer a few weeks ago sorry and I look like I’ve deleted my copies.

actionseeker · Nov 15, 2022

The 2ZZ is just a hollow version of the 1ZZ, hence why they both bolt on the same.

Sheik Ya Bootie · Nov 15, 2022

Cheers, yes I had both, in fact a celica 2zz sump and a Corolla 2zz sump. The Corolla one had a sensor likely for oil level or something, not temp, in the side.

this is the 1zz sump to compare how the oil returns compared to the other brands.

again I’d like the trap doors but this will be good enough for $95.

Bitter · Nov 15, 2022

I meant rear sway bar, but I do have both now. 19mm rear Eibach and then later when I did everything I got a 22 or 24mm Whiteline two position bar in front.
I have a really weird setup but it works for me.

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Bitter · Nov 16, 2022

So I take it the 1ZZ doesn't starve on turns or they just aren't tracked enough or can't go fast enough or what?
What does Lotus do with their 2ZZ to prevent this issue?
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actionseeker · Nov 17, 2022

The 1ZZ just doesn't get tracked as much or as hard as the 2ZZ so I assume it just runs into less issues. The sump baffle also will go a long way in preventing the oil from sloshing away from the pickup, and unlike the 2ZZ it doesn't seem to need the higher rate of oil return that necessitated the removal of it. It's hard to find any concrete info from Toyota themselves as to all the effects of this change.

Sheik Ya Bootie · Nov 16, 2022

Ha! No they have a baffle plate in the sump oil.

Bitter · Nov 17, 2022

So what's Lotus do? I don't seem to hear about those cars eating it on the track? I know they spec 5W-40 for "spirited driving".

Would it be possible to mod the 1ZZ pan for better oil return?

Remember, the 2ZZ has the valve cover oil spray, piston squirters, and lift oil it's got to pump for in addition to all the regular engine stuff plus rev higher means pump more oil. I seem to recall some lotus 2zz having extra oil returns?

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actionseeker · Nov 17, 2022

All the reading I've done suggests that the 2ZZ in a Lotus is the exact same thing as a 2ZZ in a Toyota with some minor reworking in terms of piping, wiring, etc. The oil pan remained unchanged, so Lotus didn't seem to disagree with Toyota's decision to unbaffle the sump.

I would assume that the 1ZZ pan returns the oil well enough since most people who swap in the pan don't really report any issues, but opening up some of the ports and vents may help.

And yeah, all the extra stuff in the head needs oil fast, so that probably went a long way into their decision to maximize oil return rate. Remember that they only designed it for 1G, so they likely figured that overall oil return matters more than somebody pushing the car on a track.

Sheik Ya Bootie · Nov 17, 2022

If you want to claim 190HP at 8200 then you want to remove as much oil from suspension and around the crank as you can.
Please refer to the video with the lexan sump.
With all the wild returns of oil in that video smacking around the rotating mass, if you were looking for a decent output you would find a way to channel that away from the rotating mass.

please investigate how crank scrapers work. These would be extremely effective in ‘retuning oil to the sump’ and give a yet higher HP output but hey are not good for longevity in a road engine.

please do not get hooked up on the wording of ‘return to sump’ because that’s not what the aim is. Making more holes will not return oil faster but will allow more to escape the baffle.

actionseeker · Nov 17, 2022

I think that Toyota was pretty explicit in that removing the pan baffle was to ensure oil returns to the sump faster. You are correct that the baffle they chose to use instead is more akin to a crank scraper and is meant to keep excess oil off the rotating assembly, reducing oil aeration and windage, but that's combined with the explicit choice to remove the baffle from the pan as well. It wouldn't have made sense to remove the pan baffle if oil return speed wasn't affected. If more oil is being pumped up to the top, and capacity isn't significantly increased, then that oil needs to come back to the bottom as fast as possible, and a huge baffle in the pan would be an obvious obstruction.

Now, without some sort of data to back up any of this it's hard to say if the 1ZZ pan actually does reduce the speed of oil return, but as has been seen by many racers of this engine, the 1ZZ pan works good enough in high-demand situations even though it would be a double-baffled engine at that point. It's clear that when the engine is being pushed to it's absolute limit, it's more important to have anything keeping the oil around the pickup than it is that the oil comes back down as fast as possible.

This is the accompanying diagram with the earlier quote I posted, along with Sheik's diagrams, they show how the 2ZZ baffle is a tiny little tray attached directly underneath the crankshaft. Below is a picture from my rebuild showing how it all fits together.

Toyota figured that this would serve well enough to minimize windage, whilst also ensuring that the oil can freely drip down back to the pickup. An added pan baffle only makes sense when you're going past the specified 1G and need to oil to stay at the pickup during that.

QRP Oil Pan - 2ZZ-GE - Direct Replacement with Baffle

QRP oil pan for fixing the 2ZZ oil starvation issue? (solved)

QRP Oil Pan - 2ZZ-GE - Direct Replacement with Baffle

TOC Wet Sump Oil Pan V1.1 2ZZ-GE – BOE Fabrication

gPAN3 — InoKinetic

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