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I have an '07 Matrix and recently got an '03 Celica GT and I find the gearing in the GT far too short, particlalrly considering you're carrying around 300+ pounds less! The top-gear RPM at 120km/h is ridiculously high and is just noise and wear for no reason. The C59 in the Matrix has significantly taller gearing and is much more relaxed and quiet on the highway.

Has anyone done a "simple" 5-speed to 5-speed swap from a Matrix or Corolla (say, '03-'08?). Are there any significant differences in the C59 mounts, etc? I have read that a 2010 Matrix might be absolutely identical, mounts-wise...

Before the thread gets littered with top-gear "torque/acceleration" nonsense; that why God invented lower gears! ;). Sure, first may be a bit taller, but if it works in a much heavier Matrix, I see no practical relevance in a GT, which is NOT a "performance" car by any stretch of the imagination!
 

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300 lbs isn't that significant a difference in a cars weight and I wouldn't advise doing a transmission swap based on that. Also realize these engines are designed to rev higher than the average car with the 1ZZ being ~6.7k (if I remember correctly). Cruising at 3-3.5k RPM's on the highway isn't that big a deal regarding wear and tear provided proper maintenance is kept. If you're still dead set on getting your RPM's down at highway speeds, I know the E-153 will work for that, there is a swap kit sold by MWR for about $3,300USD. The kit provides everything you need for a direct bolt on installation. I don't know if you can use a 5-Speed from a corolla/matrix/MR-2 in a Celica. There are other issues to consider besides if you can mate it to the engine and mount it to the car such as shifter cable mounting, and the selector shaft varies between models.

Seems like you will be spending a lot of time and money to get the RPM's down a little bit for a car that's not worth much. Not worth it IMO.

I don't recall seeing instructions for taller gearing in the Bible, so man invented taller gears.:devilish:
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I can pull a Matrix transmission from the local U-pull yard for $160 and do the work at home, so the "cost" is negligible.

About the concept that "these engines are designed to rev higher", that's utterly meaningless! Every rotation the crankshaft does over an engine's lifetime adds to the wear of every component, that's a simple fact. Drop the overall typical daily RPM by 20% and the engine components have moved/flexed/turned close to 20% less over their lifetime...

The Matrix/Vibe is a bigger, heavier car and does perfectly well with a 1ZZ and significantly taller gearing. Realistically, the biggest issue is noise; the cabin harmonics of the engine around 3,500 RPM on the highway are just annoying. An E110 Corolla transmission would drop that to 2,680 RPM!

In any case, there are quite a few how-tos about using the Matrix 6-speed in a GT-S (or GT) and there are a few caveats like mounting holes not being tapped, but by in large the transmissions are all quite similar across all 1ZZ implementations. (it sounds kind of obnoxious, but the MR-2 guys can take the entire guts of a C60 and put them into a MR-2 casing!)

Obviously, if you were looking to a simple repair swap, the natural thing to do would be to simply get a GT 5-speed and have no real reason to investigate possible alternates, thus my question to the broader audience if anyone has ever needed to try.

300 lbs isn't that significant a difference in a cars weight and I wouldn't advise doing a transmission swap based on that. Also realize these engines are designed to rev higher than the average car with the 1ZZ being ~6.7k (if I remember correctly). Cruising at 3-3.5k RPM's on the highway isn't that big a deal regarding wear and tear provided proper maintenance is kept. If you're still dead set on getting your RPM's down at highway speeds, I know the E-153 will work for that, there is a swap kit sold by MWR for about $3,300USD. The kit provides everything you need for a direct bolt on installation. I don't know if you can use a 5-Speed from a corolla/matrix/MR-2 in a Celica. There are other issues to consider besides if you can mate it to the engine and mount it to the car such as shifter cable mounting, and the selector shaft varies between models.

Seems like you will be spending a lot of time and money to get the RPM's down a little bit for a car that's not worth much. Not worth it IMO.

I don't recall seeing instructions for taller gearing in the Bible, so man invented taller gears.:devilish:
 

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Us MR2 (MK3) guys don't swap c60 internals into our c56 cases, we just swap in the appropriate selector shaft, plug the hole where the old shaft came out, and add the stock MR2 shift linkage to it. And maybe tap two bolt holes for said shift linkage if the c60 doesn't already have them. I believe someone on spyderchat has done this with a c59 as well... As long as it mounts up, shift pattern is the same, and you swap over your own shifter shaft and linkage, i see no reason this shouldn't work. (Rescinded)

Many have also pulled the stock 0.815 5th gear set out of their c56 and installed the Corolla 0.725 in its stead. Best of both worlds, shorter go gears, longer cruise gear.

Also, 300 lbs on a sub 3000 lb car is a very significant difference. That like... 10%... 🙄
 

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Looking at pictures of the c59, it appears the shift shaft goes in from the rear of the box (speed sensor side) and there is no hole in the front of the box(starter side). The Celica has linkage entering from front of the box, so if you wanted to use the c59, the best option would be to swap the gearset and diff into a c56 box...
If you take a close look at the transmission cases in your vehicles you should see what I mean.
The MR2 shift shaft goes into the rear of the box, so a shift shaft and linkage swap is all that's needed for c59 to work with the MR2.
 

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About the concept that "these engines are designed to rev higher", that's utterly meaningless! Every rotation the crankshaft does over an engine's lifetime adds to the wear of every component, that's a simple fact. Drop the overall typical daily RPM by 20% and the engine components have moved/flexed/turned close to 20% less over their lifetime...
It's not meaningless. What accounts for the majority of wear on an engine is the power applied to the components relative to their strength. This is why city driving is harder on an engine; more power is being applied to constantly accelerate versus highway driving where lower power is being applied to maintain speed. To illustrate this I'll compare my '04 Cummins and my '00 Celica.

Cummins' engines are known to last easily 500k miles. Celica's, especially Y2K Celica's, without the oil holes in the pistons, will last maybe 150k miles, most don't make it that far and few last longer.
During the Cummins' lifespan, it will have rotated 1.15 billion times, the Celica, 450 million. Here is the math:

(LE/60MPH)*RPM*60MPH
Where LE is engine Life Expectancy, RPM is the cruising RPM at 60MPH.

At 60MPH my Cummins is doing 2100 RPM's (Redline is 3000 RPM's, ~70% of maximum). (500K miles life expectancy/60)*2100*60=1.15 billion.
At 60MPH my Celica is doing 3000 RPM's (Redline is just shy of 7000 RPM's, ~44% of maximum). (150K miles life expectancy/60)*3000*60= 450 million.

You might say this proves your point, after all the Celica is revving more than the Cummins. It in fact proves the opposite. These numbers are the least common denominator; total RPM's for an engine's given life expectancy. The Cummins will rev more than 2.5 times than the Celica during it's lifespan even though it's working harder relative to the Celica. This demonstrates RPM's have a negligible effect on engine life expectancy.

Furthermore, you can look at the common failures of engines which for the 1ZZ are usually rods and/or crank bearings. Rods are a known weakness in 1ZZ's, a search on this forum or Google will reveal as much. Bearings failures are from lack of oil. In either case, total engine life RPM's have nothing to do with these failures. Maybe over revving can cause these issues but, that isn't your assertion.

I'm not saying that lowering RPM's can't potentially extend the life of your engine, but the effect is negligible and you won't likely see any of the benefits of the possible life extension due to the engine failing in other, very common ways known to the 1ZZ.

If you really want to know if it's
a "simple" 5-speed to 5-speed swap from a Matrix or Corolla (say, '03-'08?)
, ask the guys at MWR. They will give you a definate answer, but I doubt that it's that simple.

Also, 300 lbs on a sub 3000 lb car is a very significant difference. That like... 10%... 🙄
That's like saying I Iost a lot of money because I had $10.00 and lost 10% so now I have $9.00. What if I had only $1 to start? Now I lost 100%. A dollar is a dollar, 300lbs is 300lbs. What's more important is Power/Weight. 🙄 Also, the difference is between the Matrix and the Celica, not a weight reduction on the Celica. 🙄 The OP's point was the Celica's gearing is too short because it's 300lbs lighter than the Maxtrix. 🙄 I'm saying that IMO, that's not a good reason (for me) to invest the time and money to do a trans swap. If he wants to, more power to him.
 

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That's like saying I Iost a lot of money because I had $10.00 and lost 10% so now I have $9.00. What if I had only $1 to start? Now I lost 100%. A dollar is a dollar, 300lbs is 300lbs. What's more important is Power/Weight. 🙄 Also, the difference is between the Matrix and the Celica, not a weight reduction on the Celica. 🙄 The OP's point was the Celica's gearing is too short because it's 300lbs lighter than the Maxtrix. 🙄 I'm saying that IMO, that's not a good reason (for me) to invest the time and money to do a trans swap. If he wants to, more power to him.
If all you have is $10, losing $1 is a hit. Regardless, I think the comparison is apples to oranges.
I never said anything about weight reduction, just affirmed that the Celica being 300lbs lighter makes a difference.
I agree with you that the point is power to weight. Shorter gearing does provide an advantage... Assuming both vehicles have a 1zz, the Matrix with a c56 would acellerate faster than one with a c59. If both cars had the same c59 gearset, the Celica would still acellerate faster than the Matrix because the Celica is 300lbs lighter. Power/weight advantage. It would obviously accelerate slower than it did with the c56, which is geared for a sportier driver feel, but if the OP is happy with the acceleration of the 1zz matrix with c59, no reason he'd be unhappy with the c59 gearset in a Celica. More power to him.
 

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Just re-read the OP, and noted the post said "simple" c59 swap. From my understanding, it doesn't exist. That gearset could be transferred to the correct case but that costs $ to do right. If you just want highway cruising down a few hundred rpm, the 0.725 5th gear swap is the simplest solution. IIRC, some have even managed to do this with the transmission still in the car. Not the same rev drop as a taller FD+0.725 5th gear, but close.
 
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