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Discussion Starter #81
The wife is heading over to the junk yard beginning of next week to make sure none of the parts have been wrecked before she pays and has them shipped to the house. Exciting to get the parts but not so much since I wont be able to do anything with them till February or March.
 

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I've been interested in this possibility since the 7th gen first came out. I always felt like AWD was a defining attribute that made the previous generation Celica something special. It's something that just makes a car so much more fun to drive -I would imagine that for guys that have achieved really high horsepower numbers, the added traction would be a whole new dimension of performance, especially for road course driving.

I love that someone is making the attempt to make this mod accessible to a larger part of the community. We've all seen pictures of the 3sgte AWD swaps, but the lack of detailed information has kept the mod in the realm of custom shops and their customers. Also, for several reasons, I think keeping the 2zz is a better way to go, and I'm glad that's the plan here.

I believe that it's probably not as hard as it seems to do most of the steps involved in this. I'm hoping it can be made into a bolt on process with some drilling involved, but hopefully welding can be avoided other than fabricating some brackets. I know someone who would probably do small runs of these brackets.

I thought it was worth re-posting these pictures from de1phi's 3sgte swap thread:

I'm guessing the fabrication of the driveshaft support brackets will be completely or nearly identical for this project. I'd be happy to make blueprints or drawings for any custom brackets that we could post up so that others could more easily build them in the future once the dimensions are known. I think de1phi did a really good job -the only thing I think could be improved a little would be cutting out a plate of sheet metal to replace those washers on the bolts on the inside of the car. It would spread the load out a little more and make it less likely that area and the washers would get stretched or deformed over time.

There will have to be some type of custom bracket or standoff made to raise the steering rack high enough on the firewall to position it above the driveshaft so it will fit, but these will probably be simple to construct as well, and from what I could tell, they could potentially still mount to the original steering rack bolt holes if shaped the right way to allow it. As a result, I'm guessing the steering tie rods will have to be extended to reach far enough and while actually extending them is trivial, I see that there could potentially be a problem with the sway bar being in their way. I bet some existing off the shelf power steering hose with the right fittings could be found that would bolt right in and allow the existing hard lines to simply be removed.

As for the rear end, I really hope the matrix rear crossmember just bolts right up. If it does, I wouldn't be surprised if you could still use the celica rear control arms and just switch the hubs out -and that brings me to the next point-

I can confirm that at least in the case of a non-AWD matrix, the hubs are are 100% direct bolt on part for the celica rear knuckles. I had bought a celica gts rear crossmember for some parts, but I did not need the brakes or hubs, so I sold them to a buddy for him to put on his matrix. I helped him put them on and the hubs were completely interchangeable with no problems. His car was not an AWD matrix, so I just want to make that clear, but if the hub bolt pattern for those four bolts that attach it to the knuckle is the same for the matrix between AWD and non-AWD, then we can call the interchangeability between the matrix and celica hubs confirmed.

It might also be worth adding that the actual hub/bearing component is removable from the brake backing plate, so it might be possible to simply swap the celica hub for the matrix one when doing the conversion. I think it's worth figuring out whether little things like that are possible as you go through the process because it would allow more parts from the celica to be reused and make it easier for people to complete the conversion with the least amount of new parts as possible.
 

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Discussion Starter #83
Thanks for the info about the rear hubs, all the part numbers back there cross so its not a big concern. The big concern is getting the diff in with minimal mods, the axle shafts in with minimal mods, and the front steering rack in with minimal mods. As for the drive shaft I have not decided if I want to multi piece the drive shaft like a stock unit or use a custom one piece unit I could have built here locally. I'm not sure how the length of the stock unit is going to fit or if will even the transmission and rear diff. First thing is first, getting the rear to take a rear diff. When that is done Ill tackle the front. When that is done Ill figure the driveshaft. Its process, especially when you are trying to document everything so the process can be repeated.
 

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So are you planning on using the front transmission from the AWD matrix? Because I'm wondering if it has the same 'small gear failure' problem as the C60 does, which would be a painful thing to deal with after going through all of this work.
 

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Discussion Starter #88
So are you planning on using the front transmission from the AWD matrix? Because I'm wondering if it has the same 'small gear failure' problem as the C60 does, which would be a painful thing to deal with after going through all of this work.
He's using an E154. The Matrix AWD transmission reportedly doesn't hold much power anyway.
and the E154 will work with MWRs E153 conversion kit? Or is he going to have to fab a converter plate for it? In any case, holy crap would having an AWD powerhouse celica kick ass.
That's the plan as far as I understood.
The E154F transmission bolts up to the 3S-gte motor which the E153 bolts to. Reason would lead me to believe that bc both of these transmissions use the same bell housing that they would both bolt up with the same kit. The really only difference between the 154 and 153 is the 154 has the addition of a viscous coupler installed to where the passenger axle would go. This provides the coupling for the driveshaft to the rear end. It should hold the same power levels as the 153 but I wont be touching the limits or getting any where close bc I am basicly running a stock boosted motor. From pictures everything looks like it is going to fit very well except for the steering rack. Wont know for sure till I get it all purchased and mocked up.

Here is my build plan:
12/20/2013 Purchase the rear sub assembly minus the diff of a AWD Matrix
3/01/2014 Attempt the install of Matrix rear sub assembly
3-4/2014 Purchase and install Caldina rear diff
4-6/2014 Purchase E154F trans and MWR E153 kit
7/2014 Mock up MWR kit and E154F transmission make steer rack adjustments and have drive shaft built and build custom turbo back exhaust
11/2014 Do a final install and enjoy an AWD Celica

Its going to take some time with my schedule and I plan on doing a wire tuck so I can run a larger air to water intercooler at some point. Turbo is going to have to flipped and pipes rerouted. Its going to be a chore but as long as nothing goes real bad it should get done in the next year.
 

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Cool, that's what I was hoping to hear.

I really, REALLY can't wait to see the finished product of this, because I will probably do it in the future if it works well for you. Soooooooooo exciiteddddd.
 

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Discussion Starter #90
If I can get this 90%bolt up I might take them on as jobs for customers. Reincorporate myself and open my shop back up on a very limited and select basis.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
 

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I had a chance to get under my friend's matrix to take another look at the rear subframe/crossmember with a measuring tape and compare to my celica side by side.

The control arms seem to be in all respects identical to the celica both in the dimensions of the points where they mount to the crossmember and also where they mount to the knuckle. It seems based on what I saw that the control arms and knuckles are probably interchangeable/identical between the matrix and celica and if there's any difference at all in size, it was too small for me to measure. No surprise here I guess, but confirmed nonetheless. The upper control arms have small holes in them that are unused on the celica, but on the matrix, it's used to hold a clip for the brake line, which I think shows quite clearly that this is an identical part for both cars.

The rear crossmember geometry is surprisingly different between the two cars. While the control arm mounting points have the same geometry/relative positions for both cars, the similarities end there. There is only one cross beam on the celica crossmember assembly, while the matrix has two giving it a much more robust construction to handle torque at the rear wheels. I measured the rear crossmember mounting points on both cars, and the celica's are spaced more widely.

The front mounting points of the matrix crossmember would place them in an area on the celica near the edges of the rear wheel well where it doesn't look like anything is in the way, but the area might have to be reshaped to accept these forward mounting points. They are not very close to the original celica forward mounting points at all.

Another small note: the matrix rear subframe seems to be held on by studs and nuts instead of bolts like on the celica. I know that doesn't matter much, but it couldn't hurt to tell about it.

The matrix crossmember is a few inches "taller" than the celica's -in other words, the distance between the control arm mounting points and the body of the car is greater on the matrix than the celica. If it were possible to bolt up the matrix crossmember to the celica, the rear end of the car would be sitting quite a bit higher unless something was modified to counteract this. I guess this "height" difference makes sense since the celica is a car that sits lower/has a lower ride height.

My conclusion from looking and measuring today is that the rear crossmembers/subframes are clearly not bolt-up interchangeable. It looks to me like some sort of hybrid fabrication involving cutting up and merging the two different assemblies from the celica and another car is probably going to be the way forward. Based on this observation, I think it's worth looking into the rear crossmember of the caldina to see if it's better suited to a cut-and-merge fabrication. One advantage it has from the start is that it's sure to fit your differential of choice while I'm not sure if it's know yet if the differential mounts of the matrix crossmember will accept the caldina diff without modifications.

Maybe you already knew about everything I had to say here, but I hope that at least if nothing else, a hands on confirmation will give you more confidence in your research. If there's something else that you want me to measure or look at for you on the matrix, I could probably get access to the car again pretty quickly. I would have posted some pictures from what I looked at today, but it was dark out and the shop light wasn't enough for my phone's crappy camera to focus even with the flash on.
 

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sorry man, I tried to get pictures, but it wasn't worth cluttering up this thread with the garbage that came out on my phone -all you can see is a bunch of black out of focus mess and the tape measure in the foreground glowing super bright. I'll have to redo the process during the day to get usable pictures. I'm more than willing to do it again if there's a need to see the differences in detail.

I found the parts diagram images for them, and hopefully that will help for now.

The difference is pretty big and you can see most of what I was talking about in these pretty well.





 

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Discussion Starter #94 (Edited)
I had a chance to get under my friend's matrix to take another look at the rear subframe/crossmember with a measuring tape and compare to my celica side by side.

The control arms seem to be in all respects identical to the celica both in the dimensions of the points where they mount to the crossmember and also where they mount to the knuckle. It seems based on what I saw that the control arms and knuckles are probably interchangeable/identical between the matrix and celica and if there's any difference at all in size, it was too small for me to measure. No surprise here I guess, but confirmed nonetheless. The upper control arms have small holes in them that are unused on the celica, but on the matrix, it's used to hold a clip for the brake line, which I think shows quite clearly that this is an identical part for both cars.

The rear crossmember geometry is surprisingly different between the two cars. While the control arm mounting points have the same geometry/relative positions for both cars, the similarities end there. There is only one cross beam on the celica crossmember assembly, while the matrix has two giving it a much more robust construction to handle torque at the rear wheels. I measured the rear crossmember mounting points on both cars, and the celica's are spaced more widely.

The front mounting points of the matrix crossmember would place them in an area on the celica near the edges of the rear wheel well where it doesn't look like anything is in the way, but the area might have to be reshaped to accept these forward mounting points. They are not very close to the original celica forward mounting points at all.

Another small note: the matrix rear subframe seems to be held on by studs and nuts instead of bolts like on the celica. I know that doesn't matter much, but it couldn't hurt to tell about it.

The matrix crossmember is a few inches "taller" than the celica's -in other words, the distance between the control arm mounting points and the body of the car is greater on the matrix than the celica. If it were possible to bolt up the matrix crossmember to the celica, the rear end of the car would be sitting quite a bit higher unless something was modified to counteract this. I guess this "height" difference makes sense since the celica is a car that sits lower/has a lower ride height.

My conclusion from looking and measuring today is that the rear crossmembers/subframes are clearly not bolt-up interchangeable. It looks to me like some sort of hybrid fabrication involving cutting up and merging the two different assemblies from the celica and another car is probably going to be the way forward. Based on this observation, I think it's worth looking into the rear crossmember of the caldina to see if it's better suited to a cut-and-merge fabrication. One advantage it has from the start is that it's sure to fit your differential of choice while I'm not sure if it's know yet if the differential mounts of the matrix crossmember will accept the caldina diff without modifications.

Maybe you already knew about everything I had to say here, but I hope that at least if nothing else, a hands on confirmation will give you more confidence in your research. If there's something else that you want me to measure or look at for you on the matrix, I could probably get access to the car again pretty quickly. I would have posted some pictures from what I looked at today, but it was dark out and the shop light wasn't enough for my phone's crappy camera to focus even with the flash on.
sorry man, I tried to get pictures, but it wasn't worth cluttering up this thread with the garbage that came out on my phone -all you can see is a bunch of black out of focus mess and the tape measure in the foreground glowing super bright. I'll have to redo the process during the day to get usable pictures. I'm more than willing to do it again if there's a need to see the differences in detail.

I found the parts diagram images for them, and hopefully that will help for now.

The difference is pretty big and you can see most of what I was talking about in these pretty well.






Thanks for all that info. VERY VERY HELPFUL. My next move is to get both of the assmbled rear sub frames out and next to each other to see what the differences are. This project might just stop there. But if its matter of making spacers and reinforcing plates to mount some shit Ill keep going.

As for the calidina stuff, that was orignially my go to but getting here to the states is going to very expensive and hard to get. I have contacted many "importers" with no response. I am getting a great a deal on the matrix stuff so chopping it up wont hurt my feelings.

edit: I can always just take the diff carrier assembly off of the matrix rear sub and weld that to my Celica sub frame and reinforce that. Like I stated earlier, at this point I just need to get them side by side to take measurements and see what way I want to go. The rear assembly is what, for me IMO, is going to make or break this project.
 

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You may want to try Nad Auto for your Caldina stuff. they're somewhere around Atlanta. My buddy bought lots of front clips from them for projects at his Raleigh shop so I know they are legit. No telling what the cost would be though.

Looking forward to seeing how this progresses along for you.
 

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Hey Jason, just had a thought - are you sure the E154F has the same center diff ratio as a Caldina? I would imagine they are, but I don't know it for sure.
 

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The older ST215 Caldina used the E150F transmission. The newer ST246 is automatic only and uses the U140F, if that helps.
 

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Discussion Starter #100
You may want to try Nad Auto for your Caldina stuff. they're somewhere around Atlanta. My buddy bought lots of front clips from them for projects at his Raleigh shop so I know they are legit. No telling what the cost would be though.

Looking forward to seeing how this progresses along for you.
I sent them an email, hopefully they send me a reply soon.
 
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