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Discussion Starter #1
What's up NC.org,

Got a quick question that's been bugging me lately, but I'll find out one way or another. Here's the scenario:

Purchased a 20v Blacktop 4AGE for my AE86 that came with motor, harness, and FWD transmission (Came in the AE111 corollas, not available stateside)

Decided I would figure out what the FWD transmission is: two options C56 or C160... (C160 shares internals with the C60)

Pulled trans apart and found a lovely surprise -- it has a factory LSD... also found out the bad news... it was a C56...

My question is (and my research has told me the answer is 'probably') will the LSD from my freebie C56 transmission fit into my C60? Keep in mind that it is NOT a helical LSD, it is a factory installed clutch-type LSD (I can see the ends of one of the clutches through the inspection holes). Anyone know more about the C56 that the states never got?

Here is a non-detailed pic...



-Alex
 

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Discussion Starter #4

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Discussion Starter #6
You need to make sure you have the right ring gear that matches up with your pinion gear also
Yessir,

I plan on swapping over the ring gear that's currently in the C60... I really wish I didn't have to though because the gear ratio would be much better for my boosted celica @ 4.0588:1.... sad face... :marky:

That would be mix-and-match of the R&P... which is a huge no-no...

-Alex
 

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T3HKMAN,

Wow you're a life-saver... I didn't realize that this information was out there... I'll report back just in case someone else runs into a similar situation...

-Alex
I do what I can when I can, this site has helped me in the past. Just trying to do my part.

You need to make sure you have the right ring gear that matches up with your pinion gear also
Are you talking about the final drive on the output shaft? You must be, pinion gears only exist in the factory differential and nowhere else in the trans. Let's use the proper terminology, please. Cuts down on confusion.

To Alex:

There's a possibility that you can use differential ring gear that's currently on that clutch lsd. First thing to do is count the teeth and make sure the dimensions on your clutch lsd ring gear and match them up to the ones on your c60 differential ring gear. You are going to have to do some math with this.

You should also make sure if everything is good with that lsd&gear to do the lsd bearing preload test. If you do have to switch out to the c60 ring gear re-torque to lsd specs 74-78lbs depending on what site you follow ( I did 80 I don't trust my torque wrench) also don't forget to boil ithe ring gear.

Basically follow the toyota manual instructions.
 

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You need to make sure you have the right ring gear that matches up with your pinion gear also
Are you talking about the final drive on the output shaft? You must be, pinion gears only exist in the factory differential and nowhere else in the trans. Let's use the proper terminology, please. Cuts down on confusion.
the final drive is the ring and pinion put together to create the "final drive"

now lets go back to the OP. He wants to take a LSD from a different style transmission with a different "final drive" ratio then what he has. So he needs to make sure the "Ring" on the LSD will fit with the "pinion" or he needs to swap "rings" to have the correct "final drive"

With that said you can get different rings and pinions to change the final drive if you are willing to press on and off all of those gears. MWR does it all the time with their c60s that they have forsale.
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
To Alex:

There's a possibility that you can use differential ring gear that's currently on that clutch lsd. First thing to do is count the teeth and make sure the dimensions on your clutch lsd ring gear and match them up to the ones on your c60 differential ring gear. You are going to have to do some math with this.
Problem is that the C56 ring gear has 69 teeth and the pinion (on the output shaft) has 16... if i were to use the ring gear that has 69 teeth on the pinion gear from the C60 (which I am under the assumption has 17 teeth [4.529 * 17 = 76.993] = most likely combination for ring and pinon is 77 Ring / 17 Pinion) the gears wouldn't match correctly as they wouldn't be pitched correctly (since they aren't spur-cut gears) and wear would be expedited. I also hypothesize that since the C60's weakpoint seems to be stripping the pinion and people also seem to claim that the C56 (5-speed) is less likely to break in a similar manner that the difference may be the fact that there are thinner teeth in the C60 vs the C56...

Edit: Curiousity, is the pinion part of the input shaft or can it be pressed out?

More news -- took a tape measure to the LSD unit at lunch and eyeballed the measurements in comparison to the quaife specs. All of the measurements seemed to be on par but since the bearings/speedo gear/ring gear were installed and I could only visually check. More to come when I actually install...
 

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Edit: Curiousity, is the pinion part of the input shaft or can it be pressed out?

More news -- took a tape measure to the LSD unit at lunch and eyeballed the measurements in comparison to the quaife specs. All of the measurements seemed to be on par but since the bearings/speedo gear/ring gear were installed and I could only visually check. More to come when I actually install...
Not with toyota transaxles. It's all one piece.

i would use a caliper to measure all that stuff so you are dead on.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
i would use a caliper to measure all that stuff so you are dead on.
Planning on getting exacts when I break everything down, also I'm going to use a spare axle from another members car to ensure that the splines are correct for the LSD... otherwise its a wash...

Not with toyota transaxles. It's all one piece.
Thanks, that's what I figured. Can't use the ring gear because I can't use the input shaft... since it's a 5 speed input shaft.

-Alex
 

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the final drive is the ring and pinion put together to create the "final drive"

now lets go back to the OP. He wants to take a LSD from a different style transmission with a different "final drive" ratio then what he has. So he needs to make sure the "Ring" on the LSD will fit with the "pinion" or he needs to swap "rings" to have the correct "final drive"

With that said you can get different rings and pinions to change the final drive if you are willing to press on and off all of those gears. MWR does it all the time with their c60s that they have forsale.
We were saying the same thing it's just that the way you said it earlier could possibly lead to confusion to those new to transmission modification/repair and who use these threads in the future. Trying to avoid that not get into a :piss: contest, newcelica has too many of those.

Problem is that the C56 ring gear has 69 teeth and the pinion (on the output shaft) has 16... if i were to use the ring gear that has 69 teeth on the pinion gear fromthe C60 (which I am under the assumption has 17 teeth [4.529 * 17 = 76.993] = most likely combination for ring and pinon is 77 Ring / 17 Pinion) the gears wouldn't match correctly as they wouldn't be pitched correctly (since they aren't spur-cut gears) and wear would be expedited. I also hypothesize that since the C60's weakpoint seems to be stripping the pinion and people also seem to claim that the C56 (5-speed) is less likely to break in a similar manner that the difference may be the fact that there are thinner teeth in the C60 vs the C56...

Edit: Curiousity, is the pinion part of the input shaft or can it be pressed out?

More news -- took a tape measure to the LSD unit at lunch and eyeballed the measurements in comparison to the quaife specs. All of the measurements seemed to be on par but since the bearings/speedo gear/ring gear were installed and I could only visually check. More to come when I actually install...
It is 17 I just counted it for you on one of my 3 output shafts.

Not with toyota transaxles. It's all one piece.

i would use a caliper to measure all that stuff so you are dead on.
^
This. I used my feeler gauge a lot as well so if you don't have one get one.
 

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You need to make sure you have the right ring gear that matches up with your pinion gear also
Are you talking about the final drive on the output shaft? You must be, pinion gears only exist in the factory differential and nowhere else in the trans. Let's use the proper terminology, please. Cuts down on confusion.
We were saying the same thing it's just that the way you said it earlier could possibly lead to confusion to those new to transmission modification/repair and who use these threads in the future. Trying to avoid that not get into a :piss: contest, newcelica has too many of those.
No we were not saying the same thing..... I was talking about part of the final drive. Not the whole thing and the proper terminology was used.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
It is 17 I just counted it for you on one of my 3 output shafts.
Awesome, I guessed right! ha

This. I used my feeler gauge a lot as well so if you don't have one get one.
Ditto. Thanks for the advice.

Like I said, I'm not really ready to tear into my C60 yet -- I'll post up when I have the much needed LSD in my car... The AE86 with the blown motor is the current priority...

-Alex
 

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Are you talking about the final drive on the output shaft? You must be, pinion gears only exist in the factory differential and nowhere else in the trans. Let's use the proper terminology, please. Cuts down on confusion.
We were saying the same thing it's just that the way you said it earlier could possibly lead to confusion to those new to transmission modification/repair and who use these threads in the future. Trying to avoid that not get into a :piss: contest, newcelica has too many of those.
No we were not saying the same thing..... I was talking about part of the final drive. Not the whole thing and the proper terminology was used.
Yup you're right my bad. Technically the output shaft is like one big pinion gear even though it's not referenced as such. However, allow me clarify my point since we are now talking around each other.

The only place a "pinion gear" is mentioned in the service manual is on page 451 of vol2. For people new to this they could wonder what exactly you are talking about if they are following the guide as they should. I'm constantly looking at the manuals because I just finished one c60 have another to finish up and a c59 waiting. I will admit that I didn't type clearly what I was trying to describe either. Either way we are both trying to be helpful.



Awesome, I guessed right! ha



Ditto. Thanks for the advice.

Like I said, I'm not really ready to tear into my C60 yet -- I'll post up when I have the much needed LSD in my car... The AE86 with the blown motor is the current priority...

-Alex
Nice, i'll keep looking at the thread for updates.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
UPDATE:

So I have a new question -- that I probably know the answer to -- are the axles the same in both the GT and the GTS?

I am replacing a motor on another forum member's car and he has a GT and before I put the axle back into the car I decided to test fit it into the LSD (from the AE111). It seemed to fit at first and then I was turning it and it felt like the splines were moving. Since I was already ticked off about some other things I said fk it and finished what I was doing.

Y'all think I was premature on condemning it as not working due to the axle shafts? I didn't even look at the spider gears to see if that's where the movement was.... =/

-Alex
 

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So if the blacktop came with the c56. A c60 should bolt right up to it correct? My cousin has a ae92 and wants to do a silvertop swap in it
 

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Discussion Starter #19
So if the blacktop came with the c56. A c60 should bolt right up to it correct? My cousin has a ae92 and wants to do a silvertop swap in it
Well, the source where I'm getting a lot of the information is wikipedia so the information is suspect -- take it for what it's worth.

However, I still have the bellhousing from the "C56" (or C52) and a spare 2zz block laying around and can check it out really quick. Honestly, I was under the assumption that the C56 for the AE111 just had a "4A" bellhousing and when they moved on to the "ZZ" generation they redesigned the bellhousing.

Lastly, if the older C-series bolts up to the ZZ style motor then I may look into 2ZZ+T50 into the AE86... Problem with that is that everywhere I've found online says that the 2ZZ is impossible to mount RWD...

Sorry for the rambling, I'm just thinking out loud.

-Alex

EDIT: JDMRavi - if your buddy needs a C-Series bellhousing to make the swap work, let me know.
 
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