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Okay, I follow this now. The intermediate shaft only transmits power when the front/centre half it connects to has slip or speed differences, in normal mode the parts all move together so the lock sleeve is engaged all the time. 50/50 but not the wimpy rear diff that needed a rear axle coupler to choke it.

Edit: https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=BMv_v9IBugU

Don't weld anything it's not design for that kind of force. I'll get the carrier bracket with hubs from the Rx300 or Highlander next time around.

Another point I found, there's also an oil return hose in the aftermarket turbo oil pan where the transfer case would be.
http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=161622&nocache=1523826312558
It could be relocated in theory if the oil return plugs were to support an oil cooler for both MR/FF cars. 1zz don't have that option without an aftermarket pan, filter, so my question.. could a 1zz oil pump supply a 2zz crank enough oil.



 

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Jake is correct, the upper block is almost the same shape, actually an optical illusion. I got further into this and found the 1zz to be more convex, meaning a larger bell shaped area.

1st the red rectangles are the support brackets for the transfer case except a single hole that had to be flatten by OEM.

In the green rectangle the cylinder 1 or 4 runner is sideways, but the 2zz runner is vertical same as cylinder 2,3,4 or 1 making a 2zz appear less convex.

I must have been looking at that upside down block from the 4wd as there is no significant a ridge between the 2wd blocks.
 

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Discussion Starter #103 (Edited)
Hey everyone,

Quick update for why I was MIA for so long. Family surgeries family deaths... Not the best start to the year or the way I wanted to end the weekend I planned to work on it. Anyway life seemed to settle down now... Although in the process of selling the house so... I dont have a shop right now. (Not related, but if your following the project and want to help work on it with me... I'm in the magnolia area, looking for shops in the shoreline/Seattle area) Enough of pity help.


If you didn't want to read that... READ STARTING HERE for no sob stories. Lets talk!

First off I want to talk about why I would weld the half shaft. Post #101 has this graph


You can see the half shaft goes straight through the central diff/ Transfer case. Refer to post #97 for more of my in depth research on how the transfer case works in newer awd Toyota. After that day I saw this quote somewhere
"I choose a lazy person to do a hard job. Because a lazy person will find an easy way to do it" -Bill Gates

Although me and 2jz differ on the option of welding the halfshaft and intermediate shaft together I want to show the pros and cons of it.

First off I will list the cons
1). You will need to find a half shaft that is strong enough to hold the torque.(more on this later in the post)
2). You will need a stig/tig welder to weld the half shaft to the intermediate shaft along with welding experience.
3). If you dont have a lsd then if the right wheel slips all other three wheels wont spin
4). Put little more stress on the transmission.

Now lets talk about the pros
1). Easier way to mount the transfer case and have it work.
2). Always Awd as long as passenger side spins.
3). If you have a LSD you will have full time AWD
4). Less hassle to install.
5). Easier to remove after install (wont need to drop transmission just remove halfshaft and unmounted transfer case)
6).100% drive to all the wheels well... pretty close to 100% no split.
7).Limits the possibility of breaking the transmission.



Anyway lets not talk about this too much because this is uncharted territory and we cant really compare pros and cons without doing it.

I want to explain why I want to do this though...
First off from looking at the rx300 half shaft it looks like its solid. Which usually can handle a lot more torque than a hollow half shaft. Second I dont want to weld the half shaft to the transfer case that would cause lots of different problems and is just plain dumb, but if I take the intermediate shaft that is supposed to be on the transmission transfer case side and flip it on the open end side. I could weld it to the half shaft Effectively welding it in place like this


I have already confirmed it will fit on the other side of the transfer case


Also still fits into the transfer case differential so it would work correct?



Well let me talk a little about why it may not work. First the oil in the transfer case needs to be held in there so a silicone cap/ O-Ring would need to be custom made, but on the other hand that is by far something easy any of us could do. So I feel comfortable welding the intermediate shaft onto the passenger half shaft. I mean after all if I really think about what could break I think about the half shaft snapping... Which I'm sure that anyone of us would say that's a way easier fix that having to fix a transmission. I'm sure alot of people would differ on this and they can I just would like to have a working AWD Celica rather than not having one. I mean easier mounting easier maintenance whats the huge downside here please let me know if I am overthinking and mission something here.

Last off I will try to continue to work on the project. I am looking for a cheap enough garage/ shop (Really hard in Seattle)
 

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Pics aren't working but I went back to the training video, I don't follow how an Lsd will make things full-time, maybe share some of that info.

Here's how to do it right, by watching the training video again it was clear to me the all-trac diff (blue green) had a longer neck piece for locking sleeve via electric clutch or service technician. (white)

Any chance it could fit in the newer transfer house with a few mods? It's more adaptable than welding a RH shaft (pink) to the hollow shaft (yellow)

Already commented the (pink/yellow) shafts turn at different speeds, only possible in a strait line or part-time off road surface, never on pavement.

Here's the finish product that can adapt to full-lock or variable full time via (green) lock sleeve. If I understand correctly the newer is only variable power so the lock is always engaged,?
 

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Just wanna give my condolences man. I know you don't want the sob story but I just wanted to show appreciation for the fact that you're still pressing on with this considering your real life events.

Be cool man and great info!

Sent from my HTC 2PZC100 using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter #106
Just wanna give my condolences man. I know you don't want the sob story but I just wanted to show appreciation for the fact that you're still pressing on with this considering your real life events.

Be cool man and great info!

Sent from my HTC 2PZC100 using Tapatalk
Thank you I appreciate it, But I would still like to help everyone while I go through the process. I mean life happens right?

Anyway the pic's were broken I fixed them now... Hopefully.
Second I can totally see where 2jz is coming from, But I want to take this pic


and I will try to explain the differences with my transfer case. Tomorrow I will try to get updated pictures and explain further.
Anyway first with the transfer case I have the locking sleeve(White) is non existent it is welded to the differential in the transfer case. So having no button or electronic clutch it is always active on a viscous coupling front differential. Again I will try to get a video explanation of this. The other thing I wanted to talk about is the yellow green and grass green. In the transfer case I have this is a hollowed out piece there isn't two separate pieces. The part that connects with the viscous coupling of the front differential connects directly to the transfer case differential. While pink connects directly to the LSD Differential.

So 2jz is correct in the newer models the lock is always engaged. How they get around this is the viscous front differential, But with that being said there is after market and a couple mods to have a full time LSD differential.

This is why I dont understand why Welding Grass Green tube to Pink wouldnt work?


Let me know what all of you think please!

Pink, if we could find a way to get it working could be made into a custom shaft that could hold the stress. I am sure the diff can hold the power until such half shaft could be made.

I will try to get the parts tomorrow(in storage) and record or take pictures of it all

Thanks,
Jake
 

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Re-cap of last post did you notice the viscous controlled setup:

There is a RH side gear (green) and a LH (orange) side gear inside the blue diff:

Mechanical control uses the RH gear:

Viscous control uses the LH gear:

So the e154 had massive 2 in 1 system and looking at your pics the newer has 1 (orange) minus the (coupler) and (green) lock my early e50f has 1 (green) lock minus the no.2 shaft (orange) - yellow green/blue green is power split for all systems.
 

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Discussion Starter #108
Re-cap of last post did you notice the viscous controlled setup:

There is a RH side gear (green) and a LH (orange) side gear inside the blue diff:

Mechanical control uses the RH gear:

Viscous control uses the LH gear:

So the e154 had massive 2 in 1 system and looking at your pics the newer has 1 (orange) minus the (coupler) and (green) lock my early e50f has 1 (green) lock minus the no.2 shaft (orange) - yellow green/blue green is power split for all systems.
Okay yes you are correct, but as for the viscous coupler in the u140 diff which I am on my way to get from the ole shop will get video later of it.

It isnt quite a viscous diff. When you move the input shaft it will in turn move the smaller intermediate, but once you move the intermediate shaft it will move the diff in reverse and make a terrible grinding... I will probably try and take apart the diff one of these days. Tomorrow is the plan!

I will want to start having some video explanation because sometimes it is hard to explain and video is just easier to get on the same page.



Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter #109
Quick post, and other useful information for the project.

To clarify up some information I wanted to make sure I was 100% on. I decided to take apart the u140 diff to see how it works. It also gives us a idea of how to make it work.


Firstly the bolts are a pain in the a** to get off.


First impressions I didn't notice anything different or unusual, but at this point I thought I would try to record me taking it apart further.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/vBipPDLk36WyKuYL9

Not sure if that will work or if I will have to upload other places.
I wasn't explaining anything in the video so I will have to try and explain it on here.

First thing I noticed after cracking it open is the front diff not being all one piece. I was confused because it contradicts what we were thinking here having it fwd first, but instead it's rwd and fwd on demand.

Let me explain why I think this. Earlier in this thread I spoke about the vlsd. (Quick recap: Fluid goes into the diff and pushes against a metal clutch and locks in the diff)

If you watch the video you see me pull out the clutch, Which has some grooves in it not the best!

The next thing I noticed is how the intermediate shaft connects to the front diff, It is a solid piece. So how does any power get sent to the front if none of this is connected to the actual diff.

I investigate the center diff further, but it still doesn't make sense to how we are thinking the diff works.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/cXA3vcs9nzLZYJsx2

It is a open diff you can tell by how it spins the opposite way when I spin it, But when thinking about it that would be the only time the front wheels would start to move. The front wont actually work till it is locked. Rear is always working by the main connection and in case that isn't working the intermediate shaft makes sure its moving. The front diff doesn't actually work till its locked up with fluid. Still I wouldnt trust how this works there is still room for error and slippage as you can see from the grooves.

Finally I am going to leave this it is how the diff and transfer case connect.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ixd5C20EBZRxoaYE3

One thing I cant figure out is why everything is connected, maybe I can work on this later, but after doing all this, I got some very bad news. My grandmother passed away so I will be taking some time away from the project. I will be back, but in the mean time. Try to help me understand the way these interact.

Thanks!
Jake
 

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Somewhere in the world is a group of people with the knowledge you need to bridge the thinking gap. Maybe we should link here from the social media Celica groups?

I know the thread is quite but we're still following you on this journey. Hope your real life stuff goes as well as it can man

Sent from my HTC 2PZC100 using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter #111
Somewhere in the world is a group of people with the knowledge you need to bridge the thinking gap. Maybe we should link here from the social media Celica groups?

I know the thread is quite but we're still following you on this journey. Hope your real life stuff goes as well as it can man

Sent from my HTC 2PZC100 using Tapatalk

Thanks man I think were close... I feel it I have something too add on about the rear end later I'm about to run over and try to dismantle some more soo... We will see.

As far as I know the other most active Celia forum is celicahobby right? We will get something soon
 

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We also have OZcelica. I usually post in one and link from the others when making threads, never know what pocket you might find someone who knows their stuff

Sent from my HTC 2PZC100 using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter #113
We also have OZcelica. I usually post in one and link from the others when making threads, never know what pocket you might find someone who knows their stuff

Sent from my HTC 2PZC100 using Tapatalk
Thats always true, I will have to try and post some stuff over there. Although with that being said I took a video yesterday and watching it back now I think I finally got it and how some of the problems I was having could be solved simply. I will head over to my aunts house later (only garage I have to work in(Gf angry that kitchen table is messy now)) Anyway. I think there was a simpler way all along I was just over thinking it.
 

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Thats always true, I will have to try and post some stuff over there. Although with that being said I took a video yesterday and watching it back now I think I finally got it and how some of the problems I was having could be solved simply. I will head over to my aunts house later (only garage I have to work in(Gf angry that kitchen table is messy now)) Anyway. I think there was a simpler way all along I was just over thinking it.
Your missus won't be mad when she gets to cruise around in her man's unique AWD ride haha!

How did you go in the end dude? Did your theorycrafting come through?

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Discussion Starter #115
Your missus won't be mad when she gets to cruise around in her man's unique AWD ride haha!

How did you go in the end dude? Did your theorycrafting come through?

Sent from my HTC 2PZC100 using Tapatalk
Well she's always hated the car :/ it's too agressive she thinks... Uhm okay?

Anyway... In the end I think there is a couple of different ways to do it, but the simplest might just be the easiest for us to do.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/8mY1c4vroNsEs6pY7

I have a video of me breaking down as much as I can and trying to explain it, but to be honest I ramble and backtrack alot.

In the end I am basically thinking how can I use the main diff in the Celica transmission... But also would it be better to just do as Toyota did and weld the output shaft onto the center diff to force full time awd

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter #116
Welp, This morning I think I just destroyed the c60. It gets stuck in reverse wont go into first and is leaking oil, So tomorrow I will be removing it again and will take another look at the diff. Yay.... :marky:

Anyway I will be posting about a easier way to remove the transmission. So look forward to that sometime tomorrow
 

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Discussion Starter #117
Okay... Here we go, So first off my c60 is still working... Looks like the shift fork for the reverse came loose always making it engaged... Dont use old thread locker. Will probably be switching to red.

Enough of that though. Good news is I got a good look of the diff.


Yepp... its still bigger. D***



Comparing both the internal diffs they look extremely similar although the diff out of the awd looks like the center diff is weaker?
Looking at the inner shaft... My bearing was weak and broke.


Looks like you could machine out something to fit the intermediate shaft on... I dont think I will be doing that. I mean it does still fit into the opening in the c60 trans.


At this point I was exhausted and pissed off so I went to the storage unit grabbed my welder and....



Thats right I did it... Its not the best weld and I probably ruined the speed gear, but... The passenger shaft it locked to the diff. Which is how the u140 diff is. I initially thought the other shaft would still move. I kinda think it will. If I had a lsd I would of just left it... I now have a welded diff and I could really care less about the front diff being welded, For my plan I just didn't ever want the front passenger shaft to slip, I wanted it to always be engaged.
:drink:



I'm excited to drive it, but I need a new bearing, I will make the awd work this wasn't necessary, but I wanted the front to be locked. I will explain more on this later, Next I will be worrying about the transfer case and really, I think I will be able to have the transfer case mounted soon.... If all goes well with the next step
 

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Still always checking back my dude! :D
 
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