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Discussion Starter #1
I'm an experienced autocrosser who is new to the Celica and new to stock class too. It seems that I may be buying a Celica GT soon and I have a lot of questions.

1. How wide are the stock 15 inch alloys?
2. How much do those rims weigh?
3. Was the 16 inch alloy an option on Celica GT or is it legal in GS class on GT?
4. If so, what are the width & weight on the 16 stock alloy?
5. I know stock wheel size required, but can you change tire aspect ratio (height)?
6. Is REAR camber adjustable on Celica in stock class? How and what range?
7. Are there any decent shocks/struts for less than $200/ea. out there?

I know I had more questions, but that's all I can think of for now. Thanks in advance for your expertise or input.
 

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1. How wide are the stock 15 inch alloys?
6.5 inches wide.

2. How much do those rims weigh?
Too much - but then again, it's always too much weight, right? I have a set of steelies that are 20 pounds. I would guess the stock rims are 15-17 pounds.

I'm currently using the stock wheels, because I'm just that cheap.

3. Was the 16 inch alloy an option on Celica GT or is it legal in GS class on GT?
No. 15x6.5 is the only legal GT size available. Offset is 38. I have a set of wheels I daily drive with a 35 offset that fit fine. Yes, I have three sets of wheels, but I'm still cheap. Go figure.

For reference, the GTS has a 16x6.5 so you don't gain any wheel width by switching to that trim. You will, however, get shorter gears and a crappier torque band. The GT is the better option.

5. I know stock wheel size required, but can you change tire aspect ratio (height)?
Tire size is unrestricted. Someone did a test once between a 205 tire and a 225 tire. The wider tire averaged 0.5 seconds faster. I wouldn't really go past 225 though, as I suspect the tire is just going to be too deformed to work as good. Hot tires right now are the Hoosier A6 and the Goodyear Eagle RS DOT.

6. Is REAR camber adjustable on Celica in stock class? How and what range?
Yes. You should have more than enough adjustment range to get the camber you need, especially if you upgrade to a stiffer rear sway bar. Keep in mind the rear suspension gains camber and toe out as it's compressed. This is a somewhat significant amount if you're still on the the stock sway bar, not so much if you go stiffer. I'm at 1.0 degrees of camber in the rear and based on visual inspection at an event of what parts of the tire are getting used, I'm pretty much dead on. I have pretty much the stiffest OTS sway bar available, the Hotchkis Competition bar. Supposedly they quit making that though...ask Bill Loring, I think he picked his up through less than conventional channels.

You will need the crash bolts to get the right amount of camber in the front. Search this forum, someone posted part numbers a long time ago.

7. Are there any decent shocks/struts for less than $200/ea. out there?
Define "decent" shocks and struts. I recently bought the KYB AGX as has been mentioned. However, it adjusts rebound and compression in lockstep. Rebound is a little soft at the lower settings and compression is too stiff at the higher settings. Makes for a frustrating tuning experience. If you can find someone willing to part with their Konis, I would really recommend that. Most Konis have been converted to accept a 2.5" ID spring though, and now that Koni quit making the rears for our car I doubt anyone will want to part with theirs.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
There's some great info here, thank you!

I'm still curious as to the weight for the stock 15 inch alloy if anyone knows it, because the lightest rim(s) currenty on Tire Rack are 15.3lbs. and if it's in the ball park... no use wasting extra money for nothing. Also, I believe there are yellow Koni inserts on TR for the front... would Koni front and KYB AGX rears be better than all KYB?

Also, just to clarify - the rear camber is adjustable from the factory? I know it is on my Audi A4 and I love that fact!
 

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Also, just to clarify - the rear camber is adjustable from the factory?
Yes. No special hardware needed. If your alignment guy tells you otherwise, find a new alignment guy. Sorry if that wasn't very clear, so I'll explain in a separate paragraph.

When you go into a turn, your suspension compresses. On the Celica, the fronts do not undergo any change in alignment - camber and toe are static through the whole range of suspension motion. The rear, however, will change - if by chance you ever dump 200 pounds of whatever into the trunk, pay attention to the wheels before and after. You can see a visible difference.

Therefore, when you come up with a plan for where you want to adjust camber and toe in the rear, your settings should take this into account. The amount your rear suspension compresses in a turn is affected by things like sway bar strength.

I'm still curious as to the weight for the stock 15 inch alloy if anyone knows it, because the lightest rim(s) currenty on Tire Rack are 15.3lbs. and if it's in the ball park... no use wasting extra money for nothing.
Don't bother. Try these: http://www.imageinmotion.com/SLIPSTREAM1565-5100-40-.htm

I have this wheel in a 15x7 and it is 13.0 pounds (actual weight as measured by me). Those guys ship from Canada so it may be pricey. I bought my set from racinglab.com (not these guys), but racinglab doesn't have a 15x6.5 Slipstream in our lug pattern.

would Koni front and KYB AGX rears be better than all KYB?
I don't think so. I think I posted a thread recently outlining why I don't like the AGXs and it boils down to me not being able to dial up the rebound I really want in the rear because compression goes too high. I'm still testing this and I'm running an event this weekend so I'll have more data then, but for now this is forcing me to keep the rears somewhat soft, and the fronts even softer, just to get the transitional balance that I want. In other words, the rears are the sticking point in my setup, not the fronts.

Tokico makes non-adjustable performance shocks for the Celica, but if you've ever seen the autocross guide at farnorthracing.com, the guy there specifically lists them as "crap" so I personally wouldn't buy them. For that matter, by his rationale the KYBs are probably "crap" too, but they are probably better than the stock shocks.

On the plus side, at this softness I don't need to change the settings if it rains. :rolleyes:



Hope that all makes sense. Let me know if you need any clarifications or if you have more questions.
 

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just as an FYI the Koni yellow rears for the Scion TC are a direct fit for the celica. They are probably going to be a little stiff because of the higher weight of the TC, but that may be a better option than the AGX's.
 

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Is there proof of this i.e. installed pics? I heard the spring seat was different. If so that's a big boon for everyone except me. Looks like I built a losing car. :sadpace:

Konis can be revalved so that shouldn't be an issue. My understanding of shocks though is that stiffness depends more on spring rate (wheel rate, to be precise) than on weight of the car.
 

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I'm not certain it has been tested with Koni's specifically but there have been several instances of Scions using celica shocks and if you followed the Raceland Coilover thread in the suspension forum, the rear shocks seemed to be a direct fit, only the fronts required modification.

I hadn't heard that the spring seat was different :(...
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Oh man, this would be great news if they truly fit.
 

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Guess someone needs to make friends with a TC owner who has a set of Koni yellows and borrow them for a day...

I was hoping to be able to do a suspension upgrade sometime this summer, and I figured I'd take the risk and try the TC rears, but at this point it might not be in the budget :( brakes and tires are the immediate concern and I'm still having some issues with some clunking from the front end that I need to fix before thinking about springs/shocks.
 

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Hey guys. I picked up my Hotchkis Competition bar from Tire Rack, where I work. It was special order, but we ordered two, so I'm fairly sure there's still one in stock. And we should be able to get more, but I'm not 100% on that.

I'm hoping the bar will allow me to use less aggressive shock settings, which could also be good news for drivers that can't find a set of custom-valved Koni D/A Yellows.

I wouldn't worry much about wheel weights. John and Chris from Tire Rack drove the Grassroots/Tire Rack project STR MX5 for the last two years. Within that, they did two wheel weight tests. Each time, they found that the difference in lap times for light wheels was not statistically significant. They could FEEL the difference, but they couldn't measure it.

I hope this info helps. Good luck!

 

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The max camber I could get in the Rear on my stock gt-s was -1.9. With 1 crash bolt in the front i was able to get -2.1 and -1.7. I am running a eibach rear sway bar and run on some vw bbs 15x6.5 +40 I think. Right now I havent run a hoosier yet but I tested this setup with 205 50 15 r888 and It did really well. I can assume the with a hoosier a6 in 225 that it would be very competitive.
 

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I am pretty sure that camber changes on the front as it compresses and when camber changes the toe changes. I don't think it changes as much as the changes you will see on the rear of the car, but it does change.

Stiffness of a shock depends strictly on the valving and shim stacks within a shock. It has nothing to do with the spring especially in stock. Typically a shock is valved to match the spring and this might be the case on the soft settings for a stock class shock. On the hard settings you basically don't want the car to move. You want the shock to have stiff enough rebound to hold the corner down once it gets compressed. You want the compression stiff enough to make the tire work at its maximum grip when you toss the weight onto that corner. Shocks in stock category are unlike shocks for anything else. You are making them do things that they should not be designed to do.

The stiffer sway bars are more about controlling body roll, so that you don't get into a positive camber gain on the front tires when you dive into a corner. It is also about lessening the rear grip to get the car to start rotating.

I hope to see a bunch more Celicas at the top this year in GS.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I am running a eibach rear sway bar and run on some vw bbs 15x6.5 +40 I think. Right now I havent run a hoosier yet but I tested this setup with 205 50 15 r888 and It did really well.
No sh!t, are you F-ing serious? (Pardon my excitable French please.) That didn't even cross my mind! ...I have a 1993 VW Corrado SLC VR6 with three different sets of VW 5X100 rims... one set of 1993 Speedlines, one set of 1992 BBS, and one set of BBS off of a 1995 Jetta VR6! So these may just bolt on to a Celica? If that's the case - then I struck GOLD! Would I need any hub-centric rings or direct fit?

BTW, buying my original owner white 95.9k mi. 2000 Celica GT 5spd. with plastic factory sunroof this Saturday... cannot wait!
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Bill,

Is there any way that you can either confirm or deny the fitment of Scion TC rear Koni yellows to the rear of the Celica? Even it is just the fact that people have bought them for a Celica.

Also, since you posted camber bolt part numbers curious about which ones you use and what alignment settings... I'm buying my Celica this Saturday and want to hit the ground running.

One other question for anyone that knows... for SCCA Solo stock class - the camber bolts HAVE to be dealer bolts I assume?
 

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You will need rings in the wheels if you want them to be hubcentric, I run mine with a tapered lug and no rings without a problem.

I had some TC konis once and looked at putting them on my celica. the rears looked identical to the celicas but the fronts were about and inch too long. I sold them before I could bolt them up because I bought some koni DAs for my car.

Yes they have to be toyota bolts for stock class. You can run 4 of them though. They are really cheap too.
 

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Our Koni parts buyer looked into the TC shocks. Koni is not aware of anyone using these on a Celica, and cannot confirm that they will work. This doesn't mean that they won't work, but they cannot confirm it. If I had an excuse to remove my rear shocks, I'd bring them here and compare them to a new set of Scion shocks. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening any time soon. Sorry.

Apparently the reason the rear was discontinued was that it was a US-only setup, with no sales. So if you want rear shocks, you should probably contact Koni directly. If they hear from enough people, perhaps they'll bring them back. Of course I can make no promises.

On the wheels, remember to look at offset as well. You'd prefer to move the wheels out towards the fenders, rather than in towards the suspension. As I recall, you have 1/4" within the rules, which is about 6mm. My heavier wheels are not hub centric. For autocross, this has never been a problem for me.

As far as camber, I've got the three dot bolts top and bottom on my car. So I'm getting max camber. I don't have the current camber numbers with me today, but I'll try to post them shortly. I have some long studs to install on the front wheels, so I may be taking the car back to the alignment shop soon.

If I had to guess, I'd say I've got about -2.0 front, and -1.4 rear. But I don't know for certain. I should have that here in my computer, but I don't.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Thanks for your input guys!

1. Swaybar(s):
So theoretically if you already had your car's handling sorted and were running a front swaybar (or both stock bars, or no front bar...) within the previous rules and now you decided to go with a more agressive rear bar/stock front bar under new rules - then now you are starting over with suspension tuning because your car will now be way loose is my assumption.

2. Brakes:
On another note, I'm used to ABS brakes. The Celica GT that I'm buying tomorrow has no ABS, therefore I'm slightly apprehensive about re-learning how to brake now. What are you guys running in the way of pads/shoes? Anyone following the Miata habit of super agressive rears and stock front pads to deal with lock-up?

3. Power (more specifically lack of):
I knew that the Celica GT is among the top 2 or 3 contenders in G-stock. When I test drove it though I have to admit that I knew IMMEDIATELY that it had absolutely zero to do with power. (I have driven SRT-4s, Civic SIs, etc. so I know that right off the start line the Celica is losing and that off-the-line loss has to be made up in the slaloms and corners by the driver.) Is there a particular exhaust setup that enhances HP and/or torque a bit (rather than just sounding faster)? Or any other G-stock legal power ideas you may have for that matter. And yes I'm well aware that this is probably the lowest bang-for-the-buck area to work on and may not be worth the $$ at all.
 

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Yeah, I'm starting over on handling this year, with the addition of the Hotchkis Comp rear bar. I might try to do some evening testing here at Tire Rack, or get to a test and tune or two. Or just wing it and see how it goes. I am a person who "just drives." I don't generally spend a lot of time with setup.

Brakes: I use OE pads and shoes. No need for anything more aggressive. The car has plenty of brake. And this was on the initial advice of GS Celica drivers before me, like Priebe, Eckert, Carpenter, and others. Since you're used to ABS, you'll need to learn how to threshold brake. When you get good at it, you'll be more efficient than if you had ABS.

Power: Yes, the car is most certainly down on power to pretty much all the other GS contenders. But it's also smaller and lighter, and gets easy legal camber. And those are huge things in autocross. At big events, I remove both my trailer hitch, and the back section of the exhaust. This terminates right in front of the rear axle line. The car is actually noisier from the cockpit than it is from outside. I've been told that removing the exhaust will provide a little more power high in the power band, but I've never dyno'ed it. I'm pretty sure that others have. But the main thing is that dropping those two items takes probably 50 lbs off the car. I'll have to weigh those parts someday, so I could verify that.

The great part is, removing the exhaust is FREE! I have a small straight pipe section that I could put on in its place, but it's a lot easier just to take the pipe off. I can do it in the paddock in about 30 minutes, including removing the hitch. The exhaust is held on with two bolts, and three rubber hangers.

Finally, I've also been told not to bother with higher octane fuels. I buy 87, and the car works great.
 
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