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No, I use inches...that would be a little over 1/4". My guess is it may actually be over 1/2". Probably way too much, but this time tomorrow I'll know.
 

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I don't know, but I can tell that just because both sides are set the same it doesn't mean both sides are set the same. There's some wiggle room at the front arm bracket as well.
 

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And the answer is...it STILL doesn't rotate. Well, maybe a little on occasion. Killed off most of the numbing understeer though.

I checked my camber this morning as I always do because it's been known to slip. All okay. Showed up in grid and while examining the rear wheels for their new-found toe-out, I realized that my front is significantly toed in. I had set it to 1/4" out and now it's probably an inch in. I haven't a clue how or when that happened since the camber is still okay. Makes no sense.

Having no option I ran it that way on first run, added a little front toe out for the second and a bunch of toe out for the third. I was running uncontested, so had nothing to lose. Monitored all runs with a DL1. My best time and my best lateral g's were on run 2 -- A little front toe out and a lot of rear toe out. Adding more front toe out resulted in my poorest lateral g's of the weekend but only dropped my time by .1 sec. Mr Loring...when you ran rear toe out for rotation, do you remember how much? I'm thinking I'll set it to 1/4" out front and 1/2" out rear. And have a custom tool kit with me in grid. I think I can adjust any corner in under 30 seconds with the right tools.

I'm now suspicious of my tires. I meant to rotate them regularly, but they wore so fast (and I was lazy and inattentive) that I wore the front grooves almost gone. Possibly the compound is cooked.

Next event I'll get everything aligned properly and either swap the tires F/R or run new fronts against old rears. Maybe that will get me rotation.
 

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Discussion Starter #484
Were you running on concrete? Peru and Nationals were my first two concrete events just last year and lack of rotation was a problem. Especially at the first event in Peru. I don't really experience that issue on asphalt. I daily drive so I couldn't get away with lots of toe and camber. What's the DL1?
 

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I don't think we ever measured the numbers on the rear, we just eyeballed about as much as we could get on one side, then matched that on the other. As I recall, one side got more than the other, so we did our best keep it even. Brian Priebe was the guy who helped me with this the first time, but it was all very "seat of the pants." The car was spooky on the street, and would shred rear tires that way, so you had to change it at the event. It's very easy to change, but doing it accurately and repeatably is going to be a challenge. The notches on the washer don't really mean anything, because there's so much slop in the system.

What rear shocks are you using? Are they DA? Have you tried a rear bar?

I've had pretty much no problem with alignment slipping to any great degree, I'm not sure why yours is moving so much. Perhaps there's some rust on the gripping surfaces of the struts, and that's causing things to slip?
 

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Were you running on concrete? Peru and Nationals were my first two concrete events just last year and lack of rotation was a problem. Especially at the first event in Peru. I don't really experience that issue on asphalt. I daily drive so I couldn't get away with lots of toe and camber. What's the DL1?
No, the Tour was at Qualcom Stadium...aging asphalt. DL1 is a gps data logger by Race Technologies. Front tires going dead would probably explain lack of rotation. No easy way to evaluate a tire. But swapping them front to rear should tell the tale.

I don't think we ever measured the numbers on the rear, we just eyeballed about as much as we could get on one side, then matched that on the other. As I recall, one side got more than the other, so we did our best keep it even. Brian Priebe was the guy who helped me with this the first time, but it was all very "seat of the pants." The car was spooky on the street, and would shred rear tires that way, so you had to change it at the event. It's very easy to change, but doing it accurately and repeatably is going to be a challenge. The notches on the washer don't really mean anything, because there's so much slop in the system.

What rear shocks are you using? Are they DA? Have you tried a rear bar?

I've had pretty much no problem with alignment slipping to any great degree, I'm not sure why yours is moving so much. Perhaps there's some rust on the gripping surfaces of the struts, and that's causing things to slip?
I like SOP. I'm going to make marks on the cam for 1/2" out, 1/4" out and zero. I agree it won't be very repeatable or precise but I'm not sure how important that is.

Koni Sport rear shocks, made from Scion. I have the big Hotchkiss rear bar.

AFAIK the struts didn't slip or I would have lost camber. I had neg 3 degrees both fronts this morning. I don't know how I can lose toe-out while maintaining camber, but I'll spend some effort trying to find the problem.
 

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was loss equal on both sides?
Actually no. Driver's side was more toed-in than passenger. First thing I'm going to do is put accurate match marks on the strut to spindleplate and then loosen bolts and see if it's still at max negative. Maybe just a small amount of slip occured and maybe even a small slip has large effect on toe. Just something to check out. Makes as much sense as anything else I can come up with.

Edit, took final measurements here at home. Front was 15/16" out. I was expecting about 3/4". Rear was only 3/8" out. Was expecting about 1/2". My best run probably had front toe at about 1/2" out. Think I'll go with 3/8" x 3/8" for next event. And this time remember to pack my toe plates.
 

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Has the engine cradle or control arms shifted? Is anything bent? Did the steering rack shift? The stock rack bushings are atrocious!

vs
 

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Discussion Starter #490 (Edited)
What methods does everyone here use for measuring and changing the alignment? Personally I use a level with digital readout to check camber and jack stands with string plus measuring tape to check the toe. However even though this is rather economical it wouldn't be a very practical way to go if I realized that I needed changes "on the grid".
 

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Toe with the wheels hanging isn't very good since camber and toe go hand in hand (with caster too). You really want the wheels on some plates to allow them to move freely when making adjustments, impractical as that is.

Oh, I use the full computerized alignment machine at work on lunch for free :-D
 

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What methods does everyone here use for measuring and changing the alignment? Personally I use a level with digital readout to check camber and jack stands with string plus measuring tape to check the toe. However even though this is rather economical it wouldn't be a very practical way to go if I realized that I needed changes "on the grid".
That works. I have some more accurate ways and some quicker ways. How about we start a separate thread?
 

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Discussion Starter #493
Starting to do my rear shocks now. Anyone have links for rear shock DIY handy just in case I need it? As I forgot to look that up ahead of time.
 

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Discussion Starter #494
It doesn't seem that hard, but as Andy T. mentioned to me, the shock didn't clear on way out, so got get some rusty bolts off.

Installing KYB AGX in rear... did you guys cut just interior plastic panel for the adjuster knob or part of the plastic tray too? Also, do these adjuster knobs stay in place or do I need to glue them on with something?
 

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If you take loose the three bolts for the front bushing of the rear LCA you can swing it around some and slip the strut out and the new one in. As for the adjuster, not sure. My BC's have an extender which attaches to the top and I threaded that down the cut away in the plastics for the TRD rear bar.

it's been forever since I've worked with AGX's. I remember my friends Eclipse a decade ago, they came with a little screw driver to make the adjustments!
 

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Discussion Starter #496
Got one rear shock assembled, going in really soon. Well the adjuster knob, anyone... does it stay on or can it fall off? Wondering if I should glue it on with something?
 

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Discussion Starter #498
Both KYB AGX rear shocks are in. The adjuster knob sits REALLY high up in there as they made the shock piston rod longer. Gotta cut some plastic now on interior panel... anyone have photos of this?
 

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What is your rear camber set at bill? Ive kept mine about 1.5 negative with close to factory toe in. I've never had a problem with rotation but I also don't run a square tire setup. I either run 225/205 or 275/205. My car rotates beautifully and hardly uses the rear 205s at all. I probably won't have to replace them all season. it is dialed in right now. 13th overall in dixie and top ten against some of the best in the northeast yesterday.

Hope all went well with the install john

I don't have much hope for the st focus. It has too much power for street tires and only comes with an e diff. It is also 3000 lbs. It will suffer as much or more than ms3s. If the class structure stays similar with the new street classes the celica will still be a great car. The srt is traction limited on rcomps so on streets it will be awful. Like all the st classes the lightest cars typically have the best chance of using the tire the best.
 

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What is your rear camber set at bill? Ive kept mine about 1.5 negative with close to factory toe in. I've never had a problem with rotation but I also don't run a square tire setup.
My initial setup was max possible camber all around. (about -3 F/R) While that might be too much, you wouldn't know it from the tread scrub, which looks really good front and rear.

I'd bet 75 cents that my problem is tire condition related. I'm thinking I cooked the fronts and a replacement pair should be here any day. I'm not going to make any changes or decisions until I sort out the tires. I seem to have schedule conflicts for the next couple months events, so no big hurry.
 
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