Mahle Pistons for stock bore liner on 2zz (MWR)

so i plan on running about 15psi on a intercooled supercharger ass well as a 100 shot of nitrous. You think the pistons alone are a good enough upgrade for the block?

Korben007 said:

so i plan on running about 15psi on a intercooled supercharger ass well as a 100 shot of nitrous. You think the pistons alone are a good enough upgrade for the block?

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If it were me, I'd go with the Mahle pistons and MWR Bearings for the bottom end. The stock 2zz rods are pretty beefy.

vip09 said:

If it were me, I'd go with the Mahle pistons and MWR Bearings for the bottom end. The stock 2zz rods are pretty beefy.

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is there an echo in here? that sounds exactly like what i would say.

nice now i dont have to pay to sleeve a block and i can still meet my power goals!

jlitman said:

Sorry to dredge up an old thread, but why exactly are MWR's set cost ~$200 more than purchasing them straight from Mahle? I don't mind the cost if there's a reason... just like to know.

Also, what about these problems noted on moremonkey... http://www.monkeytuner.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=915&start=15

Wouldn't it be safer to order them directly from Mahle, especially if they may need to be returned to them...?

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bump

(just to clarify, i know what he means, i want to know the answer...)

Celicasaur said:

jlitman said:

Sorry to dredge up an old thread, but why exactly are MWR's set cost ~$200 more than purchasing them straight from Mahle? I don't mind the cost if there's a reason... just like to know.

Also, what about these problems noted on moremonkey... http://www.monkeytuner.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=915&start=15

Wouldn't it be safer to order them directly from Mahle, especially if they may need to be returned to them...?

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bump

(just to clarify, i know what he means, i want to know the answer...)

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I kind of have an answer to this:
MWR does nothing special to the pistons -- consider this the "guaranteed in stock" mark-up... that said, I may try to order from Import Performance (it's not direct from Mahle as I had originally thought -- whoops) first, unless I have no choice but to buy the whole sleeved block and pistons as a set from MWR, in which case I'm getting the Wisecos anyway.

Mahle has supposedly corrected the problems with their pistons, but it's always good to chceck before bolting everthing down. Details on what to check and what to do if there's a problem are in that moremonkey thread linked above

no one can answer my questions eh

DaElongatus said:

guys PLEASE HELP ME WITH MY QUESTIONS !

mahle pistons is very tempting.(too good to be ture?)..

my questions are that do i need anything else to put in the mahle pistons?

how hard is the install and how long?

how much would it cost me for install at a shop?

do i just take off the head and pop them in?

how much boost can i run safely with the GT28RS turbo with large IC(w/pistons)?

what kind of power should i be expecting running safely(w/pistons)?


THANK YOU VERY MUCH

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If you need to ask these questions, you need to let a machine shop do the engine work.

Call around to different machine shops where you live and get some quotes.

MWR is running over 500whp with the mahle pistons and MWR bearings.

Since you didn't mention any fuel upgrades, your power potential would be around 210whp safely if I had to guess.

jlitman said:

I kind of have an answer to this:
MWR does nothing special to the pistons -- consider this the "guaranteed in stock" mark-up...

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I was thinking that may be the answer...

I think I may well do the same as you and order from them guys and wait a little longer. It's not like I'm in an immediate hurry I suppose...

Celicasaur said:

I was thinking that may be the answer...

I think I may well do the same as you and order from them guys and wait a little longer. It's not like I'm in an immediate hurry I suppose...

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Yes, you are, I really want to know how much an engine build in the UK costs!

vip09 said:

If you need to ask these questions, you need to let a machine shop do the engine work.

Call around to different machine shops where you live and get some quotes.

MWR is running over 500whp with the mahle pistons and MWR bearings.

Since you didn't mention any fuel upgrades, your power potential would be around 210whp safely if I had to guess.

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ive rc550 injectors/pe210 fuel pump.

my questions is that can the shop just swap in the pistons/bearings without machining the block?

DaElongatus said:

ive rc550 injectors/pe210 fuel pump.

my questions is that can the shop just swap in the pistons/bearings without machining the block?

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Mahle, yes; Wiseco, no. Moreover, the 2ZZ block has a special MMC coating on the cyl walls that cannot be honed without special tools. On top of that, everyone I've spoken to says that getting the bore right on the 2ZZ block is tricky, so if you need sleeves, the recommendation is to just buy a sleeved bareblock from MWR.

Is it true that the mmc coating is there to help reduce the amount of bore wear over time with such high revving engines such as the 2zz and H22?

Celicasaur said:

Is it true that the mmc coating is there to help reduce the amount of bore wear over time with such high revving engines such as the 2zz and H22?

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Yep -- Boosted tried to explain this to me recently, but it went a little over my head as I'm not to savvy on the science / voodoo of engine building... but that's the basic idea.

Actually, I beleive there's a technical paper on the 2ZZ floating around that explains the reasoning behind it...

jlitman said:

Yep -- Boosted tried to explain this to me recently, but it went a little over my head as I'm not to savvy on the science / voodoo of engine building... but that's the basic idea.

Actually, I beleive there's a technical paper on the 2ZZ floating around that explains the reasoning behind it...

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There is indeed - and Google also found me another PDF on the 2ZZ-GE design - I hope the links work for you...

http://spaldam.com/cars/rita/ServiceManules/MMC_engine_info.pdf
http://www.mmsport.com.au/download.php?fid=34

This is all very clever stuff - for the lazy, the MMC allows them to dispense with iron liners, which in turn allows them to have very small bore-bore distances, which makes the block stronger. I didn't realise the 1ZZ-FE has iron liners :shrugs:

Gravel said:

I didn't realise the 1ZZ-FE has iron liners :shrugs:

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Yep, thats why .5mm overbore forged pistons have been available for years.

wts said:

Yep, thats why .5mm overbore forged pistons have been available for years.

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Why do they need to be overbore though - surely removing some of the iron liner to fit them in is a bad thing? :shrug:

As for the MMC 2ZZ - notice that the pistons have to be coated in Fe-P - Iron Phosphide - is this what makes the Mahle pistions special?

Gravel said:

As for the MMC 2ZZ - notice that the pistons have to be coated in Fe-P - Iron Phosphide - is this what makes the Mahle pistions special?

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And then the next thoughts are, would it possible to get any forged piston of the right size etc, coated in this stuff to be compatible with the 2zz bore

Gravel said:

As for the MMC 2ZZ - notice that the pistons have to be coated in Fe-P - Iron Phosphide - is this what makes the Mahle pistions special?

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According to Mahle:

The Mahle PowerPak is a complete, race proven piston assembly kit.
It is composed of hand deburred, forged, performance coated pistons, high quality steel pins, round wire locks and low drag performance rings.
Performance coatings include a phosphate dry lubricant that is used to protect against ring micro-welding and pin galling during initial startup and break in. For added performance, MAHLE applies its proprietary Grafel anti-friction coating to each piston skirt.

:shrugs: I guess so...

Celicasaur said:

And then the next thoughts are, would it possible to get any forged piston of the right size etc, coated in this stuff to be compatible with the 2zz bore

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The Wisecos don't, which as I understand it, is why you need sleeves that can be easily machined to the correct specs, whereas the OEM bores are pretty much impossible to hone.

The Mahles are supposed to be exactly the right size and can be dropped right in -- though there was that issue about the valve reliefs that is now supposedly fixed...

Slightly off topic, I just emailed MWR and asked if the Mahle's would work with thier stroker kit. Only issue I can think of is the piston height etc.

Shops want silly money to hone and sleeve over here in the UK. If Mahle's wont work with the stroker, I might just drop them in and keep displacement as stock, or maybe convince myself to save up for the Trial kit...