NewCelica.org Forum banner

1 - 20 of 196 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,145 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Well last winter I bought a set of 12:1 compression pistons from Monkey Wrench Racing (they custom designed/ordered them from Wiseco). I have two 2zz engine's so I built the 2nd one with the 12:1 pistons. Here are some pictures of pistons and them in.






Look how shiny those cylinder walls are


I ran the car on 94 octane (we have a few stations here that carry it), well I started running the pistons and gave them a good 2000 km brake in period (I put the power fc to fuel cut at 4500 rpm's that way I wouldn't rev them high before brake in was done). At first the knock sensor levels were a bit higher then the stock pistons were, but weren't anything significant, forged pistons are more "noisey" then stock cast ones and that will be picked up on the knock sensor. During brake in the pistons slowly registered more and more on the knock sensor. So I called up MWR and talked to Matt, he said that "forged pistons make more noise then stock cast pistons and it's "normal it's just regular piston slap".

By the end of the brake in period I was getting really really high knock sensor level from the Power FC which I never got with the stock pistons. So I continued to tune and tried everything to get the knock down an couldn't. So I went out and got some VP racing 103 unleaded gas (thats 103 mon which is equal to 108 at the pump ((mon+ron)/2)) and ran the car, below is what I got for knock numbers from the power fc with the vp 103.



All of the knock sensor readings was piston slap noise, in the entire time in this chart with the VP 103 gas I never went to full wide open throttle and the car was running on the rich side with conservative timing. There was almost no difference between the knock number on 94 octane and the knock numbers on the vp 103 octane gas.

So we pulled the head off and the inside of the engine on the front and back walls were totally scared to hell. The pistons were warn and scared and were no good after less then 2500 km. The sides of the walls were fine just the front and back were messed up. Here are pic's








You can see the wear strating from the tip of the piston skirt (on every piston), their use to be little lines all the way down the skirts that were worn completely smooth, and you can see the virtical scratches in the piston.

So we pull the pistons and put the stock pistons back in, we pressure tested it and the best cylinder was 13 psi low and the worst cylinder was another 14 psi lower then that (27 psi low). The block was in perfect condition before and pressure tested great. So with the block fubared with scratches we took the car for a run to see what sort of knock levels we would get with the stock pistons, and this is what we got.



Way less knock with the block fubared and stock pistons and I was going WOT on and off trying to make as much knock as possible.

So I contacted Monkey Wrench (talked to Matt again) racing and they instantly started to blame me and that I must have installed them incorrectly. They basically told me to F off. I offered to show them the knock sensor readings and pictures, they didn't want to see any of it they just told me that I must have done something wrong.

Getting nowhere with MWR I called up Wiseco pistons and talked with them, they wanted to see the pictures and the knock sensor readings. So I sent them off to them, after that they determined they need to see the pistons themselves and analyse them, so I sent 2 of the pistons in to them. They came back and said "I've got quite and analysis. There's a lot to it, but basically it calls for us to change the skirt profile", they said that the 12:1 and 11.5:1 pistons skirts need to be redesigned, but they felt that the 8.8:1 (low compression pistons) had a good skirt profile on them and they wouldn't suffer the same problem. So Wiseco custom make me new pistons with a redesigned skirt profile and sent them to me for free to replace the ones I bought.

But now I still have to buy sleaves ($350 us) for my engine and get a machine shop to put them in ($600 us). I thought that since Monkey Wrench Racing custom ordered/designed these pistons and sold them to me with the description of;



LOOK they specifically say; "They are designed for tighter piston to cylinder clearances then other aftermarket pistons to MINIMIZE PISTON SLAP AND CYLINDER BORE WEAR."

They should help with the cost to repair the block, and with Wiseco admitting that it was a design flaw and sending me new pistons for free that MWR would look at the evidance now and come to a fair solution. I thought a resonable solution would be a free set of sleaves from MWR (since they sell them) so that I can get my engine repaired and I would pay the machining cost. So I called MWR and talked to Matt again, and he gave me the same storey as before, MWR thinks it's something that I did wrong, and didn't want to see any of the pictures, knock sensor data, or e-mails from Wiseco. Matt even accused me of "over reving" the pistons, I said I didn't but also didn't realise that the MWR pistons had a rpm limit to them, he said they did it was the stock 8300 rpm (which I never even went upto because I had way to much knock readings).

1) So a warning to any one with the MWR 11.5:1 or 12:1 compression pistons, you should be running sleaves in your engine to run these pistons

2) I would like everyones help on this to let Monkey Wrench Racing know that if they are going to claim that the Money Wrench products are superior and well designed that they should back it up and that what they did here is not acceptable. Please call them at (248) 624-9820 or Fax them at (248) 479-0775 or e-mail them at [email protected] and let them know this isn't right.

*EDIT*
MWR did nothing to try and identify or rectify the problem, in fact they did not want to see any of the information in this case at all. Which is one of the most alarming facts, for a company that is making new custom parts to turn a blind eye to a potential problem with their product. To not even look at pictures or investigae what the actual cause of the problem, that is not only turning their back on me but on every customer that bought these pistons. Who knows what other problems other customers had with their products and they refused to hear them or see picture. They may have people calling up with problems with any number of the custom product (valves, springs, pistons, sleeves, flywheels, etc) and I would be shocked if they treated them any better then they treated me. That is not the way to run it, MWR should have atleast investigated the problem to see if there were any design flaws in the product, not just instantly blame the customer.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
13,784 Posts
:chuckles:

I'm still waiting for the 'terrible' Trial header dyno's that they claim they have.

Sorry to hear you have to go through this WAR. Monkey Wrench should own up and help out with the rebuild costs.

This really does not look good coming from a VERY trusted member of the Celica community.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,908 Posts
I am sorry that it happened WAR, but if Wiseco admitted it was their problem then I dont see why Monkeywrench owes you anything. Why are you going after Monkeywrench instead of Wiseco, as they admitted it was their fabrication problem?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,145 Posts
Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
ringthree said:
I am sorry that it happened WAR, but if Wiseco admitted it was their problem then I dont see why Monkeywrench owes you anything. Why are you going after Monkeywrench instead of Wiseco, as they admitted it was their fabrication problem?
MWR got wiseco to make the pistons but they custom order them and provided the information to wiseco. MWR didn't provide wiseco with the correct information either, wiseco asked me to get my block measured because the wear pattern wan't what they expected, the cylinder block length was shorter then they were told. Also MWR at the time (amost a year ago) was selling these as their custom ordered pistons (which is actually what the wiseco docutmentation that came with them said) just like their MWR valve and MWR valve springs, none of which is made by MWR but was orignally ordered and either designed by MWR or designed based on what they specified and gave as technical data. MWR should have done more r&d and ensured that the pistons were upto spec and reliable as they claimed them to be on their webiste and when I called them since they had a big hand in how these products were designed.

Besides MRW even said that if the "felt" the pistons were actually at fault they would help me out because they were custom pistons by MWR, but they said I couldn't prove it and they didn't believe me (dispite not even looking at any pictures or anything).

If MWR stepped up and took some reponsability for this I would consider being a customer of thiers still, but after this I don't trust any of their products they helped make or design (valve, springs, flywheel, etc) and will no longer buy anything from them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
285 Posts
ya WAR, you could try talking to Wiseco on more forms of compensation. The after sales service of MWR is appalling though and some of their loyal customers should speak to them on your behalf.

mark
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,603 Posts
that blows. sorry to hear about your problems with the pistons and block.

On behalf of the celica community I'd like to thank you for going so far with weisco and getting them to redesign their pistons.
 

·
The Original 1zz Fanboy
Joined
·
3,774 Posts
I'm surprised to hear this. Monkeywrench has always been awsome in helping with my car and have always given me great service. I hope everything works out for you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,908 Posts
WAR said:
MWR got wiseco to make the pistons but they custom order them and provided the information to wiseco. MWR didn't provide wiseco with the correct information either, wiseco asked me to get my block measured because the wear pattern wan't what they expected, the cylinder block length was shorter then they were told. Also MWR at the time (amost a year ago) was selling these as their custom ordered pistons (which is actually what the wiseco docutmentation that came with them said) just like their MWR valve and MWR valve springs, none of which is made by MWR but was orignally ordered and either designed by MWR or designed based on what they specified and gave as technical data. MWR should have done more r&d and ensured that the pistons were upto spec and reliable as they claimed them to be on their webiste and when I called them since they had a big hand in how these products were designed.
Did Wiseco actually say that MWR made a mistake? Just because they ordered the parts to a specification doesn't necessarily mean that they are at fault if they dont come that way.

Maybe MWR should step up and fix the problem and then go after Wiseco, but that would seem to be their perogative.

If MWR was at fault why did Wiseco so readily replace them?

I'm not saying that you shouldn't go after someone I just think you will much more likely get satisfaction out of those that have already admitted fault.

Also, doesn't MWR already have something on their site that says that these pistons have to be used with sleeves?

I know I sound like I am defending MWR (well I kinda am) but trying thinking of it from their perspective, if they had to listen to every problem that people had and fix it and then fix problems that may or may not have been caused by them they would never make any money...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,145 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
ringthree said:
Did Wiseco actually say that MWR made a mistake? Just because they ordered the parts to a specification doesn't necessarily mean that they are at fault if they dont come that way.

Maybe MWR should step up and fix the problem and then go after Wiseco, but that would seem to be their perogative.

If MWR was at fault why did Wiseco so readily replace them?

I'm not saying that you shouldn't go after someone I just think you will much more likely get satisfaction out of those that have already admitted fault.

Also, doesn't MWR already have something on their site that says that these pistons have to be used with sleeves?
Wiseco asked me to measure my cylinder and said the length was a lot shorter then what they were told, and that affected how they tapered the skirt and that is what the design flaw in the piston was. The pistons were made to MWR specification and technical data MWR gave Wiseco, to me at this point it was the specifications and technical data that made the part fail which is what MWR involvement in the product, thus the blame should atleast partially fall on them. If the part designe was right and it was manufatured wrong then it would be wiseco's fault, but that is not the case the part was manufactured right it was the design/technical data that was wrong.

Wiseco said that it was a design fault, not an installtion errror, and specifially said that they would help me, but didn't have to due to this being a custom order based on the specifications and techinical data given to them from MWR.

And no MWR still does not have anything saying that you should be running these pistons with sleaves, they infact say "This is extremely critical for the Toyota 2ZZ engines, which can't be overbored when their bores get worn". And when I purchased the pistons I specifically asked them if these were made to run with the stock MMC lining and MWR said that is what these were designed for and had the proper rings and everything for the mmc lining.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
656 Posts
Originally posted by ringthree
I am sorry that it happened WAR, but if Wiseco admitted it was their problem then I dont see why Monkeywrench owes you anything. Why are you going after Monkeywrench instead of Wiseco, as they admitted it was their fabrication problem?
Monkeywrenchracing sold him the product though. I understand what your saying that wiesco made the product, but say I sold you a front bumper that didn't fit. Would you come after me or the company who made the front bumper?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,634 Posts
I'm not going to go in to much detail here as I think it's not the appropriate place, and I think that those who have dealt with us know that our customer service is top notch. I will correct some of the glaring inaccuracies (I'm not going to say "lies")

1. When Warren first contacted us we did NOT immediately brush him off. We did our best to determine what happened with his engine and make it right. We got in contact with Wiseco, and worked with Warren and our friends at Wiseco to get Warren a free brand new set of pistons. We had, previous to that, offered Warren a free set of pistons off of our shelf but we wanted to also bring Wiseco in to analyze the problem further. They chose to stand behind the pistons that they developed with our input. Warren received a free set of pistons.

2. Wiseco did not say that the original design was wrong, that's simply untrue. They have made a VERY minor revision to the piston skirt profile for Warren's replacement pistons. The fact is that we have 25+ sets of these high compression pistons in customers' engines with no complaints beyond the occasional observation of slightly higher than stock piston noise, which is not uncommon for forged pistons which require higher than stock piston to wall clearance. Warren's engine is the first that has had any problems and honestly we don't know exactly what happened for sure. We most definitely never told Warren to F off, and this is the first opportunity I've had to see these pics. Looking at the pictures now I would guess that it was simply revved way too high (possible, since he has the PFC and our valvetrain, which will hold up to crazy RPMs), misshifted, or overheated. Overheating can easily happen with a fresh engine if the cooling system isn't properly bled of air and will cause cylinder wall scoring just as we see in the pictures. Sometimes this isn't even apparent by the coolant gauge reading. Again, these are guesses.

I understand what Warren is going through, it's frustrating when you run in to obstacles in the process of building a race car. We've done our best and made sure that he got replacement pistons regardless of the cause of the problem. He called today and threatened to trash our name on the forums if we didn't give him free merchandise. We'll choose to give freebies to customers sometimes to ease the pain of a mistake and to keep everyone happy, but I don't appreciate being threatened. I am disappointed that he chose to misrepresent the facts and badmouth our customer service, but I do understand his frustration.

I'd like to thank the several of you who emailed us asking for our side of the story. We pride ourselves on our customer service and it's painful to see it discredited despite our best efforts, but it's encouraging to hear from other customers who simply don't believe that things would have gone as described.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
656 Posts
You have to look at it from our point of view, none of us want to get ripped off or see a fellow celica owner get ripped off either. I think you guys have great customer service (ordered my clutch from you) but from his story it didn't sound like you guys tried to help him, but from your story it does. I think he is more pissed about having to get sleeves for his block now and spend an extra 1000 dollars on something he didnt expect too.

edit: Don't get me wrong I appreciate everything you guys do for the celica with parts and etc. and I'm sure everyone else does. I am not holding anything against you and will probably be ordering parts from you in the future, but hopefully you guys can resolve this.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,518 Posts
Originally posted by monkeywrench
Warren received a free set of pistons.

didnt he allready pay for them?(with his first order ) When you say free pistons you have to reemburse the original ones in order to have the new ones for free
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,413 Posts
Originally posted by monkeywrench
Looking at the pictures now I would guess that it was simply revved way too high (possible, since he has the PFC and our valvetrain, which will hold up to crazy RPMs)
So does that mean only MWR's valves/springs are meant for high rpms but their forged wiesco pistons aren't? :wtf:

It would be odd that the stock pistons are able to go up and above 9000rpm whereas the wiesco pistons are only meant to see 8300rpm.

If MWR had totally reimbursed you for the set of pistons you bought, I'd call it pretty good day. If all they did was give you another set to replace the fubar'd set, then I'd say there should be a little more done to rectify the situation.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,634 Posts
143hawaii said:
So does that mean only MWR's valves/springs are meant for high rpms but their forged wiesco pistons aren't? :wtf:

It would be odd that the stock pistons are able to go up and above 9000rpm whereas the wiesco pistons are only meant to see 8300rpm.
The pistons are good for well over 8300. We have customers spinning to around 9k without a problem. I don't know how high you'd have to rev to hurt them but it would be so far past power peak that there's no reason to get anywhere near that range.

I'm sorry to say that this matter is probably closed. The demands we were presented with were not reasonable and we were given no room for compromise despite our best attempts. That, and Warren has already taken his "revenge" on us.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,559 Posts
Originally posted by monkeywrench
I'm not going to go in to much detail here as I think it's not the appropriate place, and I think that those who have dealt with us know that our customer service is top notch. I will correct some of the glaring inaccuracies (I'm not going to say "lies")
You just did. This was a bad decision on your part too.

Originally posted by monkeywrench
1. When Warren first contacted us we did NOT immediately brush him off. We did our best to determine what happened with his engine and make it right. We got in contact with Wiseco, and worked with Warren and our friends at Wiseco to get Warren a free brand new set of pistons. We had, previous to that, offered Warren a free set of pistons off of our shelf but we wanted to also bring Wiseco in to analyze the problem further. They chose to stand behind the pistons that they developed with our input. Warren received a free set of pistons.
I have ordered many sets of custom pistons from Wiseco and Arias, so I know what it takes to have a custom set of pistons made correctly. You should know that custom pistons will have a "batch" number for reordering. I bet you guys reordered the piston from the batch, but asked for it to make "X" compression. The head/ring lands of the pistons were changed, but the skirt stayed the same.....per your request.

For your sake, Iwill say that I don't like the cylinder wall finish on his engine BEFORE he ran it. It might just be reflection, so I really can't say.

Originally posted by monkeywrench
2. Wiseco did not say that the original design was wrong, that's simply untrue. They have made a VERY minor revision to the piston skirt profile for Warren's replacement pistons.
Isn't that "saying" it's incorrect? If it was correct, why change them? It's easy to see that it's all on the thrust side of the skirt too......what does that mean? I'll let you know, if you want me to.

Originally posted by monkeywrench
The fact is that we have 25+ sets of these high compression pistons in customers' engines with no complaints beyond the occasional observation of slightly higher than stock piston noise, which is not uncommon for forged pistons which require higher than stock piston to wall clearance.
How many of those 25+ sets called and complained about the knock issue? Out of those that have called, how many have actually tore the motor down again?

You can't go off of the fact that you have 25+ kits sold "so there shouldn't be a problem" crap. You need to listen to customer input, especially on a part such as aftermarket pistons.

Originally posted by monkeywrench
Warren's engine is the first that has had any problems and honestly we don't know exactly what happened for sure.
It appears that Wiseco does, why not call your friends up there and have them tell you? If you can't look at that bore and the thrust side of that skift and not know what happened....well, forget it.

Originally posted by monkeywrench
We most definitely never told Warren to F off, and this is the first opportunity I've had to see these pics.
Yet your very first comment says that MWR did everything to corect and figure out his problems. Why must WAR resort to posting his situation a forum to get your attention?

If that is "everything" MWR can do to solve his problems, I'd think twice about buying from MWR then.

Originally posted by monkeywrench
Looking at the pictures now I would guess that it was simply revved way too high (possible, since he has the PFC and our valvetrain, which will hold up to crazy RPMs), misshifted, or overheated.
I laughed here


Originally posted by monkeywrench
Overheating can easily happen with a fresh engine if the cooling system isn't properly bled of air and will cause cylinder wall scoring just as we see in the pictures. Sometimes this isn't even apparent by the coolant gauge reading. Again, these are guesses.
Give me a break, you can look at the piston AND the cylinder and tell it wasn't from heat. What do you do at MWR again? :wtf:

Originally posted by monkeywrench
I understand what Warren is going through, it's frustrating when you run in to obstacles in the process of building a race car. We've done our best and made sure that he got replacement pistons regardless of the cause of the problem.
Didn't Wiseco do that, not you?


Originally posted by monkeywrench
He called today and threatened to trash our name on the forums if we didn't give him free merchandise. We'll choose to give freebies to customers sometimes to ease the pain of a mistake and to keep everyone happy, but I don't appreciate being threatened. I am disappointed that he chose to misrepresent the facts and badmouth our customer service, but I do understand his frustration.
Nice. :stupid:

Keep up that great customer service thing you speak off with quotes like that.

Originally posted by monkeywrench
I'd like to thank the several of you who emailed us asking for our side of the story. We pride ourselves on our customer service and it's painful to see it discredited despite our best efforts, but it's encouraging to hear from other customers who simply don't believe that things would have gone as described.
But yet it does happen, doesn't it?

Make it right.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
896 Posts
monkeywrench said:
When Warren first contacted us we did NOT immediately brush him off.

We pride ourselves on our customer service and it's painful to see it discredited despite our best efforts, but it's encouraging to hear from other customers who simply don't believe that things would have gone as described.
Thats funny.

:eatpop:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,413 Posts
War,

Do you have any closeup pics of your cylinder walls before you ran the wiesco pistons?

And not related to the situation...but did you get a chance to weigh each of the stock pistons and each of the wiesco pistons on a gram scale? What were the weights?
 
1 - 20 of 196 Posts
Top