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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Have been getting some complaints of excessive knock on the Basemap-13. So I revised the IGN map, basically retarded ignition timing in lift by 2 degrees on average. I know many people are getting away with up to 35 degrees advance in lift, but its safer to have it down around 30, and you can advance it if you aren't getting knock.

http://users.ameritech.net/trdcelica/jesseILbasemap-14.zip
 

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I had a bit of knock at 91 Octane on that map but switching to 94 seems to have cleared it all up (not to mention I can feel the difference). Time to start playing around with VVT on a dyno and see where it goes. :D
 

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Ever since they switched ALL of our pumps to an E10 mix I've had to retard timing map by about the same amount too. Yay for ethanol!...not.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Well it turns out that the guy who was reporting "excessive knock" was really just seeing the CEL flash on shifts, which is normal, especially with the lower knock warning threshold on my maps.

Anyways, the way I see it you now have two maps to choose from for N/A base maps:

Rev 13 will give you a few more degrees ignition advance in lift.

Rev 14 if your knock levels are a bit high on Rev 13.
 

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Jesse IL said:
Well it turns out that the guy who was reporting "excessive knock" was really just seeing the CEL flash on shifts, which is normal, especially with the lower knock warning threshold on my maps.

Anyways, the way I see it you now have two maps to choose from for N/A base maps:

Rev 13 will give you a few more degrees ignition advance in lift.

Rev 14 if your knock levels are a bit high on Rev 13.
I am the one getting high knock values at high RPM's inbetween shifts.

I have an 02 GTS, with the more sensitive 02 knock sensor.

Yes I was getting high knock values of 30-43, inbetween shifts, on my commander with Jesse's REV 13 map i believe. I am going to do some primative data logging during lunch today and see what i can come up with. This will be my first tuning attempt ever, but i will only be checking where and exactly when i get the knock with a friend in the car monitoring the PFC with only RPMS and KNOCK values being shown. Then report back here with the results and most likely take Jesse's advice and retard timing bout 2 degrees from columns N12-N20, i believe this are the columns for 6000-8500 rpm.

correct me if im wrong Jesse.
 

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zero2toy said:
Then report back here with the results and most likely take Jesse's advice and retard timing bout 2 degrees from columns N12-N20, i believe this are the columns for 6000-8500 rpm.

correct me if im wrong Jesse.
Actually they are 5500 RPM to 8500 RPM but close enough. :gap:


You should find an empty road, put the car in gear, depress the throttle smoothly and slowly so you can log from low rpm up until you hit redline just before cut-off. You should do a log for each gear individually. This will give you a better indication of where actual knock is happening vs it being a knock value from a shift.
 

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I dont know about the 02 knock sensor but 40-44 in lift is not real knock on my 00 GT-S. I usually like it to be set to 39-41 max value in lift to be on the safe side but I am not worried of the occasionnal 44 I get ..

BTW, my ign is closer to 30 than 35 and I use 91 octane gas ... I am pretty much set to the max safe point be4 to loose power/ have knock
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
zero2toy said:
Jesse IL said:
Well it turns out that the guy who was reporting "excessive knock" was really just seeing the CEL flash on shifts, which is normal, especially with the lower knock warning threshold on my maps.

Anyways, the way I see it you now have two maps to choose from for N/A base maps:

Rev 13 will give you a few more degrees ignition advance in lift.

Rev 14 if your knock levels are a bit high on Rev 13.
I am the one getting high knock values at high RPM's inbetween shifts.

I have an 02 GTS, with the more sensitive 02 knock sensor.

Yes I was getting high knock values of 30-43, inbetween shifts, on my commander with Jesse's REV 13 map i believe. I am going to do some primative data logging during lunch today and see what i can come up with. This will be my first tuning attempt ever, but i will only be checking where and exactly when i get the knock with a friend in the car monitoring the PFC with only RPMS and KNOCK values being shown. Then report back here with the results and most likely take Jesse's advice and retard timing bout 2 degrees from columns N12-N20, i believe this are the columns for 6000-8500 rpm.

correct me if im wrong Jesse.
At this point I wouldn't pull timing at all if I were you. "knock" when shifting is not knock. Its transmission noise. It is impossible for the car to knock at that time anyways, as the injectors are shut off. If you want to see real high knock sensor activity, just shift harder.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
blinding-gts said:
zero2toy said:
Then report back here with the results and most likely take Jesse's advice and retard timing bout 2 degrees from columns N12-N20, i believe this are the columns for 6000-8500 rpm.

correct me if im wrong Jesse.
Actually they are 5500 RPM to 8500 RPM but close enough. :gap:


You should find an empty road, put the car in gear, depress the throttle smoothly and slowly so you can log from low rpm up until you hit redline just before cut-off. You should do a log for each gear individually. This will give you a better indication of where actual knock is happening vs it being a knock value from a shift.
He does not have a Datalogit.
 

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Jesse IL said:
He does not have a Datalogit.
Datalogic is on order. So keep the advice comming. I still have a long way to come from twisting the distributor to advance/retard timing before i become an efficient tuner. I also need to buy a wideband o2 sensor.

Per Jesse IL
Whoa...whoa. That's not knock. You won't want to lower timing if that's when its knocking. That's just transmission noise. The knock threshold is lower on my map than on the MWR map. That is why you're seeing knock warnings when you shift gears.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
When you are off the gas, it is impossible for the engine to knock because the injectors are shut off. Any knock sensor actvity you see when you let off the gas is noise from somehwere else. When I go to the drag strip, I get knock warnings on every shift.

So yea i was not able to do a test run during lunch, too busy. but from what jesse says, all seems to be good, no changes have been made to any of my maps.
 

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I wanna advance the timing a lil from 5500-8500 like 1 er 2 degrees to increase power in lift, feels like there is a lul during lift engagement till bout 6500 rpm. Am i mistaken that advancing the timing here will give me a lil more push during low lift rpms?
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Most likely all you're feeling is the smooth engagement of a 5600 rpm cam switch. You don't get a big surge in power like you do with the factory setting.

I would not recommend making any changes until you get a wideband and Datalogit.
 

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Jesse IL said:
He does not have a Datalogit.
Oye..somehow I missed that fact in his post. I'm beginning to think PFCs should all be shipped with one. Personally, I say it's worth every penny.

zero2toy said:
Datalogic is on order. So keep the advice comming.
Datalogit ;) Once again, worth the investment.

danGTS said:
I dont know about the 02 knock sensor but 40-44 in lift is not real knock on my 00 GT-S. I usually like it to be set to 39-41 max value in lift to be on the safe side but I am not worried of the occasionnal 44 I get ..
I found that getting a knock reading around 30 on my 02 Celica constitutes the limit on knock. You can actually hear the knock around there. The bad thing I've noticed is that it won't pick up subtle knock rattling at lower rpms. That's where good ol' ears come in.
 

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Datalogic box is in. Now i just have to figure out how to get this FC edit software version correct i can start doing some logs. Thanks for your help jesse!
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
blinding-gts said:
Jesse IL said:
He does not have a Datalogit.
zero2toy said:
Datalogic is on order. So keep the advice comming.
Datalogit ;) Once again, worth the investment.
DatalogiT

Removed the link to the FC Edit. Use the version that came with the Datalogit and get the updated version from the FC Datalogit Yahoo group.
 

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blinding-gts said:
I found that getting a knock reading around 30 on my 02 Celica constitutes the limit on knock. You can actually hear the knock around there. The bad thing I've noticed is that it won't pick up subtle knock rattling at lower rpms. That's where good ol' ears come in.
Ya 02 knock sensors are mor sensitive ... It's hard to hear knock at 7k tho unless it is very high knock.

I have also noticed that the knock sensor do not catch all the audible knock at low rpms. like at launch or 2500- rpms ... or when shifting hard at low rpms. We need to be carefull there ..

The real sensitive point for knock in our cars is between 5k and 6k. We hve to be carreful when we step on it at those rpms As I land way higher than that, thats not a problem most of the time! My tuning at 5k is pretty concervative ...
 

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zero2toy said:
I wanna advance the timing a lil from 5500-8500 like 1 er 2 degrees to increase power in lift, feels like there is a lul during lift engagement till bout 6500 rpm. Am i mistaken that advancing the timing here will give me a lil more push during low lift rpms?
You can try but I dont think thats the problem. Your lift engagement point is probably the problem. 5600-5700, right? Smooth transition is one thing but loose torque/HP is another ... I am sure you can make the difference by yourself on the streets .. I'd target 5900-6200, which ever is best after tuning. 5800 if your are very lucky.
 

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im waiting for my wide band...u think it d be a bad idea to load the map
 

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anyone?
 

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I'd like to hear of it on your car cause you have injen too .. Take it easy at the beginning if u try it. Check for knock warning light. If you go WOT, I'd highly recommend having a wideband since it appears to me (so far) that the injen makes thecar run leaner with th same map as others ...
 
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