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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
ok here is what I have planned so far.....

2ZZ
Darton Sleeves
8:1 Wiseco Pistons
Crower Rods
255 lph Fuel Pump
ARP Stud Kits - Mains, Head & Exhaust
MWR Bearings - Rod & Main
TRD Thermostat
Garrett GT2871R Dual BB Turbo (Compressor - 56 trim and 60 A/R Turbine - 76 trim and 86 A/R)
Stainless Tri-Y Turbo Manifold
3" Mandrel Bent downpipe 3" high-flow cat and 3" Exhaust
630cc injectors
AEM FIC Fuel Injector Contoller
Apexi AVC-R
Big front mount intercooler and piping (size not chosen yet)
Greddy BOV
New clutch capable of holding over 350ft/lbs torque



That is basically what I am going for right now... I know there is more stuff I have to plan out before i get started. I already have a fidanza flywheel and an exedy stage 2 clutch, but i doubt that will get close to holding the power I hope to make. Please let me know what you guys think... basically I am shooting for about 350whp maybe more down the road... i know I dont want to get into the t3 turbos and wont want to go above 400whp, which is why I have picked the 2871 listed above. I am hoping for a fun (decently) quick spooling turbo that will keep my car fun to drive and at the same time be able to hold its own on the road around here. If you guys have any suggestions let me know.... thanks
 

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If you are shooting for around 350hp I would suggest that you grab some 9:1 comp pistons, maybe even a tad higher not too sure on that. If you were to run too low a compression with that small of a turbo you may lose alot of your bottom end and not gain as much on the top and lose alot of drivability, maybe look at grabbing a gt30 series turbo, unless you tune to push the max you can set a decent dd tune for around 400whp. Are you piecing this kit together yourself? If so what turbo manifold are you going to buy? Also for extra reliability if you have the cash upgrade your vavetrain with some MWR gear, it is just abit stronger than stock and will hold up to some abuse, something you may want to look into while you allready have the engine apart. But just to emphizize on the goal that you are shooting for, you need to balance out the compression to combine NA power with Turbo power, use the turbo to just add the extra you need and only down your compression enough to keep the engine at a safe point from detonation.

BTW from looking at your parts list I'm guessing you are looking at picking up a turbo-kits.com kit?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
BTW from looking at your parts list I'm guessing you are looking at picking up a turbo-kits.com kit?
Yeah thats what I am looking at. I am nto sure if I want to go above 8.5:1 compression, which i have toyed with the options to go with 8 or 8.5.... i am hoping for 350whp but that of course is me trying to be realistic and not get too excited about what I might be able to pull.... if at all possible I want to be able to pull close to 400whp with that turbo, from looking at Garretts compresor maps it looks like it might be possible....
 

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Don't sweat the compression thing too much. The difference between available low compression ratios is pretty neglegible. We've made 560whp on 93 octane and 9.0:1 so that is not a limiting factor. Turbo system efficiency and tuning are the critical things.

Generally I recommend people do the Mahle 9.0:1 for a standard turbo engine build or do the stroker kit (happens to be 8.8:1) for a more radical build.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
the highest pump fuel in my area is only 91 octane and this is also going to double as my daily driver so I want to stay within some safe limits. Also with the turbo I picked I doubt I will be maxing it out on only 17lbs of boost, i plan on safely running 21lbs if possible on pump gas (91 octane) and then pushing even mroe on race fuel to try and max out the turbo. I dont know a ton about how the compression will directly be affected by the specific turbo i am going with, all i know is I dont want o be kicking myself down the road because I went with too high of compression trying to save some N/A power.
 

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21 lbs on pump gas... ha ha ha ha. you better do some more turbo research! you will have to pull so much timing you will make more power with 15lbs boost.

:closed::newbie:
 

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21 lbs on pump gas... ha ha ha ha. you better do some more turbo research! you will have to pull so much timing you will make more power with 15lbs boost.

:closed::newbie:
OT: Smaay give me a call!!
 

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Maybe he should try E85 if he wants more power.
 

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9:1 isnt bad at all for a daily driver. thats what i got and although i still havent gotten it tuned which i need to do soon(smaay) lol. I take my car to work m-f its a 100 mile round trip so far so good im not pushing it by any means tho until i visit lancaster
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I will definately be running race fuel if i plan to push anything higher than 20 for sure.... ill probably stick somewhere around 17lbs for safety. I just want to know what the best compression should be for the turbo setup I have panned. I know every build is going to be different and want to make sure I make the right choice and dont regret anything in the future.
 

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Just an FYI, you can expect somewhere between a 10-15% power loss there compared with someone at sea level. However the 56 trim GT2871R should be able to provide enough flow for 350 whp.
He might be able to get 93 octane in utah
Nope, 91 is the highest octane you get in high altitude states. It's because you don't need it as much at high altitude. The available fuel grades there are actually 85, 87, 91.
 

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Also, Wiseco will make you any piston you want custom if you ave about 5 weeks to wait. I'd personally say something like 9.5:1's would be good. The Wisecos are also lighter than the Mahle's by a significant amount.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Just an FYI, you can expect somewhere between a 10-15% power loss there compared with someone at sea level. However the 56 trim GT2871R should be able to provide enough flow for 350 whp.
haha... yeah we all know about the power loss here, its pretty bad, also add another second to your 1/4 mile time and thats what you would run here...

Jesse I have researched as much as I can and have done my best to understand how to read compressor charts and everything but still, I am pretty know you know a TON more about turbos than I do. with this turbo here.....
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/catelog/Turbochargers/GT28/GT2871R_743347_2.htm
realistically.... how much HP do you think I can expect to be able to pull out of pump gas? dont worry about altitude change, I can figure it all out.... my best friend actually just bought a dynojet and we can get corrected and non-corrected numbers easily, I think the HP loss might actually be slightly higher than 15% depending on the car.... I know N/A end up lossing suffering the highest HP loss. Either way let me know what you think.
 

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with this turbo here.....
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...R_743347_2.htm
realistically.... how much HP do you think I can expect to be able to pull out of pump gas?
Well I'm actually considering using the 48 trim version of this. I of course emailed ATP, a supposed "master distributor" for Garrett (since Garrett refuses to provide applications assistance) and of course I never got a reply, since I'm pretty much sure that I know more than the people at ATP :jerkoff:

Anyways, I'm going pretty much totall off ricer math here. I was actually doing a compressor comparison last weekend. I know that a low comp motor with a 2860RS can put out somewhere in the mid 330whp range at sea level. The 48 trim 2871R is rated by Garrett for 40 hp more, but there's something else more interesting about it. With the really small trim, the ultimate flow of the wheel is not much more but the efficiency is significantly higher and it appears that it should hold boost better at high rpm. If you follow the speed lines of the 2860RS, if you try and push 17 psi all the way out, you'll hit upwards of 150,000 rpm on the turbo and the thing will just run out of flow and the boost will trail off. This is consistent with what I've seen in reality. So to me this says that a 48 trim 2871R is good for 375 whp at around 17 psi and possibly even more since the boost shouldn't trail off as badly.

Now the 56 trim is a whole nother story. That thing is a monster compared with the 2860RS. The overall wheel area is just huge by comparison. Now it won't spool like the 48 trim or the 2860RS, but it should flow like crazy. Garrett rates it at 475 hp and I'm very sure that it's good for well in excess of 400 whp. The compressor really isn't all that much smaller than the 3076R that bt216 uses and that MWR has supposedly pushed to 550 whp. In fact, its much closer to that compressor than it is to the 2860RS.

The one other possible solution is the 52 trim, but it's really intended as a drop-in for a Nissan application and the packaging is pretty dissimilar to the 48 and 56 trim, meaning that adapters are needed and you can't simply buy "off the shelf" parts such as what will be offering in the near future.

For your goals at your altitude, you're definitely going to want the 56 trim. There's no way the 48 trim will pull it off at high altitude. The real question is to go with the 0.64 A/R or the 0.86? The 56 trim is not a small compressor and will be noticably laggy compared to a 2860RS. It should also flow way more up top than you're looking for. So what you could consider doing is running the smaller A/R to help the spool. It will be a bit more restrictive up top, but again the compressor is flowing so much air it might not really matter. I'm still trying to get an opinion on this besides my educated guess, but finding someone with experience has proven tough. For buying a turbo, I'd recommend Full-Race. Their prices aren't the rock bottom lowest, but they're highly reputable and I'm sure you'll get what you ask for, which can't necessarily be said for other places offering the same stuff. A lot of distributors try to pass off their cheap housings as the real deal. The turbo you get should look like this:



One of the nicest features of the GT2860RS and GT2871R is the wall cast between the turbine and the wastegate in the turbine housing. This keeps the wastegate flow out of the turbine flow and improves efficiency. You'll only find this in the real deal. I may call Full-Race tomorrow and ask their opinion about these turbos.
 

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I am new to this site but I figured I would put in my .02 on this build. Since I am building it after all...

hmm. I have not really looked at the manifold design on the kit we are going with. But I know it is a tubular with a decent runner length. I don't know what the specs on the high lobes on the cams are but it would be nice to know. I am guessing the cam profile is pretty aggressive. Maybe someone can post the profile and overlap #s.

The turbo he wants is basically a gt3071r with a t2 housing on the rear. It is rated up to 475whp and I don't doubt we can come close to that on race gas. The compressor map shows really good efficiency at high boost levels which is something we are looking at. After looking at the head design I can tell that the head flows very well, though I don't know the weak links in this design.

I am guessing that this setup with the right turbo will net 400whp give or take on 18psi of boost. I don't think that is unreasonable considering I made over 400whp on 18psi on a log manifold and a gt3076r with a .63ar housing and a 248 duration 11.3mm lift cam. Reversion sucks so I actually had to downgrade from my stock cams. The manifold he is using should be good for 50whp more than a log design on 10psi. This is about the norm for the honda guys around here as well. I have seen a lot of cars with 2871r turbos and there are so many variations that it is impossible to say for sure how much power will be made.

I am thinking that 8.5:1 compression will be the best for all around. We can tune it safe at high altitude and the 8.5:1 will still work great for sea level. It's not like the 2zz motor has any torque anyway, so there will be very little lost since at 4k he will prob already be making more than 200whp anyway. If anything it is an improvement over the stock 6k powerband.

I am confident that 350whp will be made on 15psi with a good tune. Stock LS b18 motors make 300whp on 10psi up here, I don't see why this is unreasonable, especially since this head design is far better. The trick is to keep the top end free flowing as possible to prevent reversion. I have a feeling these cams will have problems with that with excessive backpressure.

8.5:1 should be good for around 19psi-20psi safely when tuned. We will have to see how well this head handles and prevents detonation. I would say that 18psi will be very safe and very fast when it is all done. 91 octane ftw.
 

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91 octane up here (4500 ft) is a lot like 93 octane everywhere else. There is a lot less oxygen up here that still isn't compensated for. Even with a turbo. How noticeable is detonation in this motor? I have run up to 24psi on 91 octane at this altitude with no audible detonation. That doesn't mean there wasn't any, but it wasn't audible.

The t2 flange is going to limit us a bit as far as flow goes, but considering the size of the volute on the .86ar it doesn't concern me. The .63 ar housing on a t3 turbo is about the same on the inside than the .86 on the t2. They are very close.

I guess we won't know until we get it finished. But I am hopeful for our goals. We got lots of rpm to play with.
 

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8.5:1 should be good for around 19psi-20psi safely when tuned. We will have to see how well this head handles and prevents detonation.
The 2ZZ head is really very knock resistant. I don't believe anyone here is running compression as low as 8.5:1 but there are off-the-shelf Wisecos that are 8.8:1 I believe. FWIW, I just worked on a built 3S-GTE (9:1 CR) in July that was running a GT3076R and we were running 21 psi with absolutely no problem on 93 octane at low elevation.
The t2 flange is going to limit us a bit as far as flow goes, but considering the size of the volute on the .86ar it doesn't concern me. The .63 ar housing on a t3 turbo is about the same on the inside than the .86 on the t2. They are very close.
I always tell people to keep your goals firmly in mind. Do you want a big glory number or do you want a quick-spooling car that realy gets up and moves when you smash the gas? The 2ZZ is a tiny little engine that really makes no torque. It can be made to make as much power as you want provided you stick a big enough turbo on it. I've personally tuned a 1.9L stroker with a GT3582R that made 545 whp. As you can imagine, this is a lag...lag...SPIN car. The MR2 I was working on last month is a 2.2L stroker, has a ported head, HKS 264 high lift cams, Full-Race equal-length manifold and a 0.63 A/R GT3076R turbo. Now the 3S-GTE is not as efficient of an engine as the 2ZZ, but I felt that the car was noticeably laggy. There was no surge in torque in the midrange when you jumped on the gas. The engine took until at least 4000-4500 to build real boost so to me this car was more of a high rpm/highway car. If that's what you want it for, fine. If you want more of a canyon car where you could get down to 3000 rpm regularly in corners, for my money I'd go with a smaller turbo that spools up much earlier.
The turbo he wants is basically a gt3071r with a t2 housing on the rear. It is rated up to 475whp
The turbo he's actualy looking at is the GT2871R with a 56 trim compressor. It is rated to 475 whp.
I don't know what the specs on the high lobes on the cams are but it would be nice to know.
These are listed somewhere in the technical section of the site. If you don't mind spending the money on them, I'd highly suggest the Piper Stage 2 cams. The big issue with the stock cams is the horrible low rpm cam lobes. The lobe center is set at a huge phase angle compared with the high rpm lobe. The reason for this as far as I can tell is that on a stocl motor, it makes a huge sugre in power hit when the big cam switches on. This is 100% pure marketing BS to convince people that the GT-S is a MASSIVELY POWERFUL car. This is bad on a turbo because the cam switch will either break the tires loose or cause a huge stumble. Tuning the VVT system at the cam switch has proven to be very difficult. The Piper Stage 2's eliminate almost the entire phase shift and are more aggressive on the low lobe. This should aid in spool and make the cam switch much less violent.
 

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Well the turbine gas flow numbers on the turbo he wants is the same as the gt3076r with .63ar housing I am using on my car. So I don't really think it will be that restrictive. Guys are hitting 400whp on the 63ar housing on the 2871r and stock manifolds on sr20dets.

I think the goals are achievable.
 
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