[2jz-style]

Tl;dr manual has more torque capabilities, auto is easier because of the matrix awd tranny with a possible ecu flash... although not necessary because in theory you can swap bell housing and diff for it to work.

I disagree with last paragraph, lower lift engagement and tuning the f/i setup would be a real mess for auto tranny.

I know that's not your project [emoji4] just my observation. It is possible to flash a Matrix/Corolla due to the faulty '03-'04 recalls I presume. If so, you need to create maps.

I address every issue with the A140e, built into an A540h,(AWD) but the trans controller (ECT) halted this idea due to a large oversight on my part.

As it turns out there was a non-ECT A140l (old school) variant in other parts of the world and overseas, (possibly rare) with 1zz/2zz bolt pattern, it might even help when the lower block interferes, blah blah blah.


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[JakesFate]

I disagree with last paragraph, lower lift engagement and tuning the f/i setup would be a real mess for auto tranny.

I know that's not your project just my observation. It is possible to flash a Matrix/Corolla due to the faulty '03-'04 recalls I presume. If so, you need to create maps.

I address every issue with the A140e, built into an A140h,(AWD) but the trans controller (ECT) halted this idea due to a large oversight on my part.

As it turns out there was a non-ECT A140 (old school) variant in other parts of the world and overseas, (possibly rare) with 1zz/2zz bolt pattern, it might even help when the lower block interferes, blah blah blah.

3s adapter plate for u240e guys, sorry.
I will look into u341 next time if it's even useful.




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I know Toyota uses different trans in different countries, at my local tranny shop when I first started this thread they showed me a u341f which the u341e was used in the gt, as far as I can tell I have been in the junk yard fixing my car after a accident, I usually would see the u240 or the u341, I do agree with you about the a series of transmission and I love how helpful your write ups are, but I should clarify that I think the conversion would be easier with a u series transmission. I say this because at least here in the PNW I see that the transfer case is not electronically controlled they have a split of what I think it 70-30 although they claim 50-50 it has yet to be tested, I have talked about the transfer case I bought. It is not etc controlled so maybe I am getting tunnel vision thinking hey don’t have a etc controlled one.

U341 is not very strong and would need to be made stronger, as far as my knowledge goes with that trans is the diff and adapter plate could be used on the u240 in the celica, but if you are a lucky gt owner with the u341e the transition would be getting a u341f trans out of the matrix which is the same except for the internal diff.

Again I am not 100% on this since... I have a manual and not too familiar with the autos besides what I see in the junk yards. It is all just my theory.

 

[JakesFate]

I am going to post this one more time, it is of the matrix awd conversation
forums.genvibe.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=41623

There was no mention of the ecu being changed out he also asks if it would. Again they are using the u341f if that helps clear anything up for anyone.


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[2jz-style]

These transmissions have a governor gear. Unlike the A140E counterpart which is electronically controlled, the A140L uses a plastic governor gear to select which gear to go into. Over time and wear, this plastic gear's teeth shred and eventually cease to be able to control gears. This results in a transmission that can only shift to first and reverse, but not to any further forward gears. Replacement of this governor gear is relatively inexpensive compared to a replacement transmission as it can be serviced without taking the transmission out of the car.

I wrote late last night, but it refers to the shifting of gears. I haven't consider the transfer case but I will dig into that now.

It should be a manual button in the console like the st165 video, so stay tuned..

3s 4a are a dime a dozen in North America
3s-fe all trac system

4a-fe all trac system

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[2jz-style]

U341 is not very strong and would need to be made stronger, as far as my knowledge goes with that trans is the diff and adapter plate could be used on the u240 in the celica, but if you are a lucky gt owner with the u341e the transition would be getting a u341f trans out of the matrix which is the same except for the internal diff.

Not true. U3xxx has different transaxle case bolt pattern if you recall post #25 it will become more clear. All else you wrote was good, our stories are beginning to match up now.

Edit: from post #61


3s adapter plate for *u140f guys, sorry.
I will look into u341 next time if it's even *useable.






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[JakesFate]

Not true. U3xxx has different transaxle case bolt pattern if you recall post #25 it will become more clear. All else you wrote was good, our stories are beginning to match up now.

Edit: from post #61


3s adapter plate for *u140f guys, sorry.
I will look into u341 next time if it's even *useable.






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Maybe I’m not fully understanding, but in my big green book for the celica says it comes with the u341e on the gt models. In post #32 you explain how the names work for these, with the knowledge I have now of how Toyota does awd systems. The difference is the bell housing to accommodate for the center diff and bolt the transfer case on. That is my basic understanding on how they make a F (application) of the transmissions.

Will research more, but I think we’re on the same page


Also does anyone have information on the Pontiac vibe... what engine does it use for its awd. The transmission is the u341f

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[2jz-style]

Also does anyone have information on the Pontiac vibe... what engine does it use for its awd. The transmission is the u341f
http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showpost.php?p=5865398

True. celica gt had u341e, *traction control mods on 4wd computer (pic)s

Post # 32 was a formula for manual trans. very simple and consistent.

Automatic in post # 25 is more or less non-consistent.

If you think that is confusing check out U6xxx U7xxx in the scion we discuss earlier this year.



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[JakesFate]

True. celica gt had u341e, *traction control mods on 4wd computer (pic)s

Post # 32 was a formula for manual trans. very simple and consistent.

Automatic in post # 25 is more or less non-consistent.

If you think that is confusing check out U6xxx U7xxx in the scion we discuss earlier this year.



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They could work, but they would need that ecu you posted.

But, with that being said...

Its time for a little update.

So the past few days I have been at the junk yard messing with the rav4, rx300, vibe trans (not a awd vibe) to be specific 2002 rx 1996 & 99 rav4 2004 vibe. All cars were auto not being a problem because we just need the center diff out of them. One thing I noticed right off the bat the A540H in the rav4's resemble the e154 trans almost exactly. I was starting to get a little excited, but once I got the diff out I compared it to the diff in the vibe, Which I Used as comparison since you aren't allowed to take parts into the junk yard. First thing I noticed was the transfer case was giant. Twice the size than the one I got off the rx and the post 00 rav. Besides the diff being significantly bigger There was more teeth making it incompatible. (F***)
Not a problem right there is a rx300 here I quickly rush through getting the trans off(by the way is a pain in the A** every single time) which I got down to about 3 hours each time. Get the diff out trying to understand really how all this works, We have talked previously how it all works.

2Jz which was already 14 steps in front of me I am trying to understand it all myself. 3 things I noticed that I didn't notice before. The module that he just posted is bolted onto the trans. I assumed it was abs/vsc which is common on a lot of newer Toyota's, not including the celica which has no abs or traction control. Still was curious about the diff I was messing with it a little to see how it works. On the bright side it looks like it could work with a small teeth mod, which right now it looks like a bolt on.

As 2jz and I somewhat expected. it is a viscous coupling center differential. Which after getting home and reading more it seems like that is how all there systems are. When the vsc applies brakes to what ever wheel is slipping it starts adding power to the rear. There is a lock mod on many lexus and rav4 forums. Most noticeably the RX,GX and rav4/highlander which they are all kind of like cousins... Body style, not much more than that. (thought I should specify that.) The mod is unplugging the vsc, abs, maf, and iat, weird idk why that would work, but nerveless it only works for a few drives. Damn. So now what? It looks like the rx was equipped with a Torsen LSD version in 99-00 which is probably how I got the lsd diff, but it looks like its only the rear diff. There is alot of talk about this being bad, but it is very similar to how the all trac works, and could probably just use a all trac center diff... If they weren't a thousand dollars.

I'm not saying it is the same exact as the gt4 center diff, but it is most likely built off the same platform.. At least till Toyota figured out how to make vsc(basically a virtual lsd)

the all trac is a 50/50 split all the time, until something slips then it adds more power. With that written alot over at the all trac forums, it brings in the absolute need for a rear lsd diff. (3rd member) without it being a lsd it seems like the viscous center differential (I will be saying VCD for now on) will try to direct more power to the front making it more like a 70-30 split.
So is there a way to trick this?
Well from what I can tell the only way the vcd can tell which is slipping is the resistance from the transfer case. You could and I dont recommend this. Leave the two front axles out and get dust caps making the car RWD. Why would this work? well the center diff would lock up the front diff because it is slipping indefinitely making it only engage the rear wheels, There would probably be a loss in power though you wouldnt get a full 100% power.

So why not use the matrix one? Although it does rely allot on the vsc system. You can effectively bypass all of it if you just never have it connected. As I am understanding now, the vsc will just apply brakes to the wheel that is slipping giving power to the other wheels. Kind of similar to the A-Trac system on most Toyota trucks.

I think at this point I dont really care how the center diff works it works in a 50/50 with the transfer case, It may not be the all trac system 100% but it can be built to act like one.


Now I am thinking about how I will mount the transfer case...

 

[JakesFate]

Last post was quite long and didn't really explain everything so well, Although there is some good info in there. I am going to give a brief summary and build onto the previous thoughts.

Recently found out the older 96-99 rav4.1 use a different transfer case than the one I got from a rx300. It is quite big probably as big as the e154 gt4 transmission. Already stated that earlier I think, but it would look like this on a 2zz

If you were wondering yes the splines on the diff are different. It is physically bigger.

2). After researching and comparing the c60 diff to a rx300 it using the u140f transmission. The diffs looks very compatible final drive would need to be transferred from the c60, but all looks like it would bolt in.

After research I came across one problem... In 00-03 toyota seemed to switch over to a new center diff. A open diff with a virtual lsd with the use of vsc, abs, maf, and iat.

Which is pretty much why we dont use the matrix one, Don't quote me on this, but it doesn't send power to the rear unless the front slips. (Damn)

3). After researching further I have realized that both the rav4 and rx300 use a viscous center differential with a manual lock... (Sound familiar) Alot like the gt4

Researching further into this I have read many posts (From rx/rav4 owners) That also alot like the gt4 they are both a 50/50 split Viscous center differential. Many of them also discourage locking the diff in high speed scenarios (20mph/ 35kph) as it puts strain on the transmission. It is also not needed

Both the rav4.2 (IE:00-06) and the rx300 pre 2000 use effectively the same system

Both automatic and manual transmissions have full-time all wheel drive with viscous coupling locking center differential. Optional Torsen limited slip rear differential

Overall the goal is to build something close to the gt4 platform

both systems are full-time AWD with power distribution being 50/50 front and back.the only time that distribution changes is during wheel slip, but at a minimum it is always 50/50 front and back.

In the end there is a possibility that the Quaife Toyota Celica GT4 diff could work, just not with the transfer case I already have.

The transfer case I have off the rx300 has extra teeth to ensure the 50/50 split I will post more information on this along with a recap of post #44

Stay tuned

 

[JakesFate]

Time to explain how the rx300/rav4.2 and possibly more.



First off I want to state that this relates to the 00-06 rav4 and pre 00 rx300.

After alot of trial and error and trying to understand how to make this work I over looked a few things I want to go back and clarify to maybe help others understand why we are heading in this direction and not using other parts from other cars.



1). I am going to try and explain how the rx300 full time awd system works because that is what I have currently. I will be using the following photo as a reference

Quickly I would like to state that yellow is front axels, blue is rear/ drive shaft/ center diff, Green is the transfer case axle



That being said lets talk a little more of how it all connects and works together. The yellow shows how the front axles bypass pretty much everything and connect straight to the differential. To be more specific the front differential. Nothing new there pretty much everyone should be able to understand that.



The second intermediate axle, the axle in blue is to connect to the center diff, It is how the transmission transmits power to the transfer case which in turn transmits power to the rear wheels. This is a cut away of the gt4 quaife lsd differential to help with a visual

inside the differential there are actually two a front and center(ie; one that connects to the transfer case) So one needs to be hollowed out so that the front axle can connect to the front differential. The center differential axle is hollowed out to do so and to be able to connect to the larger center differential being somewhat independent.



After all that being said that is how I view the newer versions of the awd system are done with the open diff abs controlled systems. Sending power to what ever wheel is spinning and when brakes are applied it is sent to the next available starting with front then moving to rear



Lets dive a little further into the system I have on hand.



The differential isnt a open diff its a viscous center differential meaning that if the front axle(Yellow) spins faster it will in turn drive more power to the center axle(Blue) Which makes more sense. This is a little different than the open diff because rather than sending power to the wheel that is slipping the most it adds power to the center. Sort of like a lsd, but not quite because there is still a split.



At this point you would effectively have on demand part time awd.



Next I haven't really talked about the marking in green. That is what I can only guess is how the part time awd turns in to a full time with a 50/50 split (With more on demand/ wheel slip) It looks like the actual differential connects to the transfer case so that way it is always sending power to the rear. Which it makes this project a little harder... Because that is pretty awesome and sure it would work without it, but then there would need to be a center diff lock... Making awd useless at normal driving speeds(20mph/ 35kph)



I keep saying this, but the more I read about it the more it sounds similar to the gt4 post 88. When most models lost the diff lock. Which effectively is the goal. I want this to stay close to stock, not only parts wise, but the way it handles. I have no fears about how the rx300 transmission holds up as there are tons of reports of people using it off road. It definitely can handle the beating. The rx has a curb weight of 3950lbs and has a gross weight of 5000lbs. It should have no problem thrashing the celica around.



In the post I focus mostly on the rx300, but it is closly the same in the rav4, Difference is pre 00 RX300 had the option of no abs while the rav4 system helps its system with the abs/vsc, A-Trac support. Which would make it a more playable option although... The celica is missing abs



More info soon along with the possible building of the project, Just need to get the pre 00 rx diff... then find a way to mount the transfer case


Edit:

After more reading, this video shows how the gt4 awd works, https://youtu.be/OiVXBazmlWo

This is the system that seems the most reputable and something we can recreate.

 

[2jz-style]

Thanks for the write up, post 2k toyota's are difficult to tune once they integrated trans logic or drive by wire onboard the engine ecm.

I don't quite get some of your facts but at least anyone following along will learn the facts in question here:

1. Where is the viscous located on the rx300 and how do you know that was the case or by what source other than rav rx owners was your research based?

2. 153 mr2 turbo can't mesh with all trac systems and the viscous couple was on passenger side of the transfer gear. Jake may have a point with the non-all trac transfer case.

3, I notice the first gen matix use all-aluminum transfer case but the second gen rx/rav looks like steel if that provides any further clue to 50/50 split.

4. The first gen matrix had viscous couple between the rear diff and prop shaft so.. I'm thinking the rx/rav lsd vcd.. whatever the case, could be inside the bell-housing half. LIKE IT SHOUD HAVE BEEN BEFORE!

5. Does the u140f diff not fit your transfer gear or the open diff was not feasible to the build.. I don't think the u341e was a good comparison since the drive line would the same as c60.

6. I confused the 2wd systems now and then, but I can check the brake hubs on the matrix 4wd next week. I have read the auto/manual diff has no interchangeable ring gear.

I can't post diagrams right now so I will need to edit this later and rather not be quoted yet.

 

[JakesFate]

Okay I’ll hold off on the quote, but I️ would like to clear up something.

1. The rx300 uses a center differential with a viscous coupler and if I️ am familiar that is similar in the gt4.

The 00+ rav and 09 matrix both have the u140f in it. I️ may be a little biased because I️ jumped the gun and got the transfer case first. I️ would like to clear up that when I️ talk about the rx300 it also applies to 01-10 rav, 01-03 Highlander, 99-03 rx300, and the 09+ matrix. So what ever I️ find out about these now I️ will refer to by u140f

I️ have purchased the u140f out of a highlander so I️ will try and get it apart and share more in-depth on the diff, but I️ have family coming in.

2. I️ was under the impression that the 153 diff still needed to be changed out to make it work with the transfer case, I️ also have read to much that the gt4/ all track had a center viscous differential not the transfer case.

3. I️ have found out recently that the transfer case diff splines can very, that is why I️ didn’t get the a540h tranny from pre 01 rav4. The transfer case is also a lot bigger. It does mesh with the 154 if that helps. It is a set 50/50 split but on slippage more power is transmitted to not slipping thanks to the viscous diff. The u140f also does not have a diff lock so keep that in mind.

4. I️ do have a fsm I️ can send over of the rx and rav. Still trying to find a highlander fsm. It explains how to rebuild the viscous center diff in the bell housing. Yes like it should of been and always should be, but you are correct the viscous coupler on the matrix for some reason was a part of the drive shaft.

I️ do have the u140f now I️ can post some pictures, just can’t work too much on the project due to family coming in for the holidays.


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[JakesFate]

Looks like I missed a couple of questions... Sorry...

5. The u140f is the same size diff open or not. The reason I want the viscous center differential is I want real full time all wheel drive. A open diff only send power to the rear wheels on front slipping. A lot like people discuss in gts jason's thread about the matrix diff.

This is true for a lot of Subaru's too. Be sure to look it up because even though I want the viscous center diff some people like the open diff.

TL;DR: viscous center diff is 50/50 split that transmits more power on slipping, Open differential is 100/0 split and sends power to the rear on slipping.

5.5 The u140f is the transmission I will be using. Just in 01 the rx switched the internal diff over to the open diff while the others kept it viscous diff.

6. That is what I am a little afraid of now, but changing out wheel hubs, Probably just the bearing so it is cheaper, It looks like the axles may work as is. If a awd rav4 01-10 axles work on the celica then we are clear.

Sorry about not getting these earlier.


Edit:

After a quick search it looks like the u140 parts work in the U240, and U241. Will be looking more into this because the u240 is the gts auto transmission. Does the celica auto axles work with manual? I assume they would

 

[2jz-style]

Here's pic(s) update from # 64

After a quick search it looks like the u140 parts work in the U240, and U241. Will be looking more into this because the u240 is the gts auto transmission. Does the celica auto axles work with manual? I assume they would

If it came from a 1.8 litre chassis than yes, same drive line minus the ring gear but junkyards ask for presence of ABS, AWD things they need to know when selling parts..

It should be a manual button in the console like the st165 video, so stay tuned..

Wrong haha..I hadn't posted in quite some time and was getting rusty, so the friction plates push hydraulic fluid onto the lock lever when they spin at faster rate than normal. St165 early japan model had the electric actuator.

 

[JakesFate]

Here's pic(s) update from # 64

If it came from a 1.8 litre chassis than yes, same drive line minus the ring gear but junkyards ask for presence of ABS, AWD things they need to know when selling parts..



Wrong haha..I hadn't posted in quite some time and was getting rusty, so the friction plates push hydraulic fluid onto the lock lever when they spin at faster rate than normal. St165 early japan model had the electric actuator.

My local junk yard just goes by make and model they don’t really care all that much about he details, the rx300 and rag had no abs options, but I️ pulled it off a highlander which does have abs.

I️ knew they were different that’s why I️ got them before, but they look so similar I️ just don’t know yet.

I️ won’t be able to work on the project till next year

Family is in town till January 5th

You got the idea of a viscous center, it is slightly different in the later models it pushes against a clutch plates locking in the rear same system used in the later versions of the all trac

 

[2jz-style]

I also look into the rear diff mount and it's quite simple, but doing this brought up a few diagrams of the current discussion and may be helpful. I can explain the rear diff mount but I will give the OP the first go.

Rx300 front case

Rx300 rear case

 

[JakesFate]

I also look into the rear diff mount and it's quite simple, but doing this brought up a few diagrams of the current discussion and may be helpful. I can explain the rear diff mount but I will give the OP the first go.

Rx300 front case

Rx300 rear case

The rear mount seems pretty simple. I️ won’t be able to work on it right now, so feel free to come up with a mount. When I️ pulled it off the rx it Had only 4 bolts holding it in. 2 In the rear. Two on the bottom. In post #2 I️ have a image showing it mounted. The diff isn’t that heavy so mounting isn’t a problem. Just need a couple of polyurethane mounts. Or reuse the old ones.

Love to hear if you have a idea of how to mount

 

[JakesFate]

The rear mount seems pretty simple. I️ won’t be able to work on it right now, so feel free to come up with a mount. When I️ pulled it off the rx it Had only 4 bolts holding it in. 2 In the rear. Two on the bottom. In post #2 I️ have a image showing it mounted. The diff isn’t that heavy so mounting isn’t a problem. Just need a couple of polyurethane mounts. Or reuse the old ones.

Love to hear if you have a idea of how to mount

Keep in mind the rear isn’t that heavy and is mounted very simple I️n the rx picture of the mount... looks like it is just one in the rear and two on the bottom to keep it from falling down... real simple.

 

[2jz-style]

I posted the old RAV4 setup because it doesn't have an existing cradle, just a bracket to locate rear subframe.

The late model RAV4 has aluminium control arms to locate subframe. I can only guess at the 09 matrix/vibes.

I should have posted the Rx300 diff, it's similar to supra MKII/GT4 in mounting. It has the existing cradle such as 03 matrix/vibe.

 

[2jz-style]

I just notice something with the Rx300 subframe. It's rear chassis mounts could locate the celica upper control arms.
Rx300

Now celica lower contol arms are an easy swap with arm assy no.2 although none would be an exact fit, I just found this incredibly sexy.

That would leave two forward towers to be welded to chassis, (need 'em anyway) AND fab two rear platforms that don't exist on the Rx300 sub that in turn, would have been a direct bolt with matrix's rear subframe. Is this correct?